Talk:Pewter

Metalworking Mid‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metalworking, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Metalworking on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MetalworkingWikipedia:WikiProject MetalworkingTemplate:WikiProject MetalworkingMetalworking
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Chemistry Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chemistry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of chemistry on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChemistryWikipedia:WikiProject ChemistryTemplate:WikiProject ChemistryChemistry
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Craft High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Craft, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of craft on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CraftWikipedia:WikiProject CraftTemplate:WikiProject CraftCraft
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.

Untitled

I think it is rather fragile. I do not feel authoritative enough to change the page, however.Pdn 05:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Pdn, you are correct, at least some Pewter alloys are fragile. Please feel free to edit the article. --195.243.67.130 10:05, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to log in --Gunter.krebs 10:06, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC))

I don't get the second last line. The whole article talks about tin and copper, and then that sentence says something about iron. Confused Balfa 04:26, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The composition of the third type of pewter claims it "could contain up to 150 percent lead". Surely this is some sort of error?

Spelter

I must query the equivalence between spelter and pewter. Spelter is an obsolete word for zinc. Peterkingiron 23:03, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

in modern usage, spelter is an alloy of almost all zinc, used as a base metal for plating with bronze, brass, etc., in the making of statuary, lamps and knick-knacks. its advantages are in being lighter and cheaper than the metals with which it is plate. collectors, however largely view speltertware with disdain.Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Early pewterers used bismuth to harden the alloy, but it lowered the melting point and caused brittleness. Substituting brass, an alloy of copper and zinc for bismuth improved the ductility and may have provided the poor link to the spelter name. The use of antimony to replace both bismuth and zinc did not lower the melting point and provided the ability to obtain a high polish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.152.71.206 (talk) 12:20, 4 July 2006

Technical errors (such as calling one substance by the name of another superficially similar substance) often become part of the language, and the fact that they *are* mistakes doesn't change the fact that that's how the words came about.

The evidence that "pewter" does come from "spelter" is from an old but good and respected etymological dictionary. Since we literally "have it on good authority", it is true unless proven wrong by a discovery in *language* research (knowledge of metallurgy doesn't help). TooManyFingers (talk) 17:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

copper + tin = bronze

As far as I can tell, the only difference between bronze and pewter is the copper to tin ratio. Is there some physical difference between them (such as the physical difference between Bainite and Pearlite), or is it a historical artifact of naming ("Gamma rays, x-rays, visible light, and UV rays are all forms of electromagnetic radiation. The only difference is the frequency and hence the energy of the photons."). --76.209.30.239 16:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct; copper alloyed with a small amount of tin is bronze; tin alloyed with a small amount of copper is pewter. Plus, sometimes, even smaller amounts of other elements. J S Ayer 01:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

given that varying the proportions of components in any alloy by even a little will change its physical properties, it is not surprising that bronze and pewter are vastly different. pewter is a lustrous silvery grey. bronze is,well, bronze coloured, sort of a vaguely coppery brown, which darkens(patinates) over time.pewter is malleable and hence not particularly durable (it is, however eminently re-cyclable, this being the reason for the rarity of pre-revolutionary american pewter). bronze is harder.(hard enough to make edged weapnos and tools from.)Toyokuni3 (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Danforth link

I propose that the Danforth link be replaced with a more informative link. The photos aren't very informative and don't really expand on the topic. Ctordtor 03:25, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pewter Swords

Did smiths use Pewter to make swords? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.12.123.141 (talk) 13:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Have seen no examples. Pewter is a very soft metal compared to others that would be more suitable for the sword craft. Altzinn 00:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

altzinn's answer is polite understatement. a pewter sword would be absolutly useless.Toyokuni3 (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would certainly be possible to make a decorative pewter item that *looks* like a sword. Any potentially useful weapons that *could* be made of pewter (you could conceivably make a large heavy club, for example, though that might turn out too heavy to even use) would be both easier to make and easier to use if they were made of something else instead, mostly because pewter is too soft and/or too heavy. TooManyFingers (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Tomato

It seems unlikely that lead poisoning is the reason for mistrust of tomatoes. The effects are gradual and subtile. More likely is the relationship of the tomato plant to the nightshade plant. Thus, I suggest that this line be researched or removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.107.8 (talk) 11:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The relationship to nightshade is the reasoning for the distrust of the tomato, until the poor people had no choice but to eat it, at which point the fruit slowly gained popularity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.93.23.213 (talk) 21:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sections

This article contains enough information to merit {{sections}} instead of {{expand}}, and certainly not {{stub}}. Therefore, I have added {{sections}} to it. --Thinboy00 ^talk/_contribs @822, i.e. 18:43, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

the field actually warrants numerous articles, and this one needs to remain fairly generic. articles are needed on british pewter, american pewter, continental pewter, art nouveau pewter, art deco pewter, contemporary pewter collectibles, imitation pewter,the well known american pewterers (the danforths, the boardmans, the wills, gleason, griswold,etc.), the well known pewter scholars (laughlin, kerfoot, masse et. al.) pewter collecting, pewter collectors' organizations, care of pewter and more that i can't think of at the moment. my own humble library has 8 reference works on the subject.Toyokuni3 (talk) 17:14, 17 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pewter as a color

Could we add something in reference to 'pewter' being used to describe color, especially when it comes to car paint colors? The populatirty of pewter as a car paint color can be seen with the "Pewter Metallic Clearcoat" that is manufactured by Ford (paint code HJ) on the 2006 Ford Expedition. Logrolls (talk) 16:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

wegwit  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.43.64.77 (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Melted magnesium, easily done at home?

"Pewter can be melted by a blow torch and mixed with liquid magnesium that makes a flash when lit this is easily done at home."

WTF? This sentence either needs a citation or it needs to be removed. It sounds like a prank fact.

Karlchwe (talk) 21:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah...that doesn't belong here. I removed it. Wizard191 (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Solder

I had the following section, which was removed in march (Yea, I'm not quick at noticing these things) by User:Wizard191 with the reason(→Types: rmv solder info as it isn't pewter). I included this, and think it should be included, because some solder matches the definition of pewter as provided in this article. ("Modern pewters must contain at least 90% tin to be considered a pewter"), and I think at least pointing out the similarity is important.

Obviously, I don't want to just add it back without some second opinions, so what do y'all think?

Original text:

Solder, used to fuse metals such as pipes and electrical connections, is basically pewter wire. Solder has often a lower tin content than normal pewter (around 60% tin) but exceptions do occur. For example, solder made of 96% tin and 4% silver is commonly available.^{http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062723}

Dsmouse (talk) 14:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I removed the above text because it made it sound like solder is just a subset of pewter, which it definitely isn't. The example of 96% tin and 4% silver is not pewter as pewter doesn't use silver as an alloying element. Per Hull, pewter is only alloyed with lead, bismuth, copper, and antimony. I will update the article to properly reflect that. Wizard191 (talk) 19:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first sentence

The first sentence of this article seems to have been vandalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.91.217.186 (talk) 20:28, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I second the motion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.91.217.186 (talk) 20:35, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is pewter, alpaca?

If you look from the Spanish language of Wikipedia at the material Alpaca I believe it is also pewter and the name Peltre is almost interchangable. Please look and advise me if I am wrong. Onlyjoe us (talk) 10:38, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hej Joe,

es:Alpaca (aleación) is called nickel silver in English. While Alpaca is 50% copper, 20% nickel and 20% zinc (the Spanish article lists 45-70%, 8-20% and 8-45% respectively), pewter is mostly tin with only smaller amounts of copper. So, though they may look alike, they're defenitely not the same. See also the section #copper + tin = bronze above. Bronze as well contains the same metals but in yet another ratio.

Richard 13:41, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

casting characteristics?

I have read that the modern, leadless composition pewters share lead's characteristic of expansion upon solidification, due to the presence of antimony, which allows items to be cast with great precision and no shrinkage upon cooling. Is this true? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.41.40.24 (talk) 15:17, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"must be 90% tin to be called pewter" incorrect

I am quite certain that this statement is incorrect. There are many suppliers selling pewter that is no where near 90%. For example, the metal I use for jewelry is a tin/bismuth pewter where tin is actually in the minority [1] and this does not seem abnormal. I suspect that tin being a significant part is required for it to be considered pewter, but it doesn't seem to even always be the primary/majority ingredient. Pewter is definitely a pretty broad term. I'm going to remove that 90% claim.Snowrail (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the second part of that claim -- that lead is not permitted -- is also false. There are plenty of lead pewters available. They just are known to be inappropriate for food use or other body contact. But they're certainly still commonly used for decorative purposes and so on. The entire quote is wildly incorrect.Snowrail (talk) 20:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Roman use?

Section 3, "Uses" indicates "Although some items still exist, Ancient Roman pewter is rare" with a referenced web site that is no longer available. The following web site has a PDF with a paper that indicates that a number of pewter items with a large number of Roman coins dating to the late Romano-British period were found in 1968 in Appleford-on-Thames, (then Berks) England (http://oxoniensia.org/volumes/1973/brown1.pdf [2]). The Appleford Wiki article indicates such. I have edited the article with the above reference to include the find as supporting that some items still exist.

Wrong melting point?

First off, Sorry for bad English, wikipedia skills, and metal competane but can realy the melting point be as low as 170–230 °C?

"It has a low melting point, around 170–230 °C (338–446 °F), depending on the exact mixture of metals"

Tinn has the lowest melting point of 231.93 °C, copper has 1084.62 °C, Bismuth has 271.5 °C, Antimone has 630.63 °C, lead has 327.46 °C. All acording to wikipedia. Can a alloy have a lover melting point the melting point of the loverest(?)? I dont see haow that works. Whan i melt pewter myself on the stove it always separates out some hard material that form lumps. I assumed that was the rest of the alloy.

Point is that i belive that it cant melt before 231.93 °C, and that the rest of the alloy stays unmelted until the temprature is highe enugh for them to melt. Can someone enligthen me? And if I am correct i don't have the skills to change it.

Obvyusly, English is not my first languange. Thanks for understanding(Hopefully), and reply. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.38.127 (talk) 00:44, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

An alloy really can (and, in this case: does) have a lower 'lowest' melting point than its components. I don't know how or why, though. Richard 10:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look under eutectic alloy. I don't know how good WP's coverage of the topic is, but this is a vital (and fascinating) topic for engineering, crystallography, geology and a few other subjects. Look at banded feldspars too. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that link, Andy! Richard 11:05, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Zoned feldspar is perhaps a better name. We need an article on those. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I did not know that. BTW the black stuff I was talking about is called "dross", and is Oxidation of tin. - OP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.246.38.127 (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why was pewter developed?

I came to this page looking for the answer, but didn't get it. Why was this alloy developed? What advantages does it have over pure tin? All alloys have some advantage over the constituents, otherwise people would just use them instead. So what's the case here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.79.42 (talk) 13:45, 12 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The answer lies in Copper and antimony act as hardeners. Tin by itself is too soft for many purposes, see Tin#Physical properties. Richard 07:12, 13 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Translations of Pewter

The translated versions of German Wikipedia pages on Tinn, the cast art metal used for tableware and decorative art objects, always translate it as "tin" whereas the correct English word is "pewter". To call someone's collection of pewter mantle ornaments "tin" in English would cause offence: "you must show me round your collection of tin vases" or "I didn't know you collected tin lamps and figurines" would not be received well. truthordare (talk) 11:56, 30 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article de:Tinn is about a community, de:Zinn about the metal/element tin (which is the main component of pewter). Although the formal name for pewter is de:Hartzinn ('hard tin'), that metal is colloquially refered to by just 'Zinn' as well.

So technically, when translating 'Zinn' in the proper sense, 'tin' is correct. When 'Zinn' was used as a synonym for 'Hartzinn', the translation 'tin' is flawed. When you encounter such a flawed translation, you can always correct it. However, not every 'Zinn → tin' translation is wrong. Richard 09:59, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Health effects historically?

It seems likely (if not indeed obvious) that pewter containing lead was once commonly used to make eating and drinking vessels, as well as other items that might have frequent skin contact. Was death from lead poisoning correspondingly common? Did many people have high levels of lead but not high enough to cause obvious disease? Was it less of a pressing concern because of lower overall life expectancy? Or what? TooManyFingers (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This page isn't honest about lead

For the vast majority of its history, including modern history, pewter was tin hardened by lead (and other metals). Lead is central to the story of pewter. This page is overly focused on contemporary pewter, which doesn't make sense since pewter's heyday was centuries ago. Contemporary pewter should just be a paragraph or two in an article that is mostly about pewter with significant lead content. Dismissing normal pewter as "ancient" is misleading, since lead-hardened pewter was produced well into the modern era. 2603:6011:C802:FD99:715E:58F6:5606:C7B4 (talk) 02:51, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]