Talk:Tumu Crisis

Tumu Crisis is currently a World history good article nominee. Nominated by Min968 (talk) at 04:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

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China Mid‑importance

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Military history: Asian / Chinese / Medieval C‑class

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This article has been rated as C-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

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	Asian military history task force
	Chinese military history task force
	Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500)

Mongols Mid‑importance

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The common Chinese term

is Tŭmù zhī bìan (土木之變). Bìan is commonly used to describe a coup d'etat, revolt or some other dramatic incident involving the use of military force. I originally thought about translating it as "incident" but since it's too close to shijian, I've decided translate bian as "crisis". For this reason I've changed the title to "Tumu Crisis". Also it's more important for its political effect than militarily.--Yu Ninjie 01:17, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Contradiction

There is a contradiction in the troop numbers for Esen Tayisi's forces. The Esen Tayisi page says he had 20,000 calvary, while this page says he had 200,000. I think that 20,000 is likely the right number, given this sentence: The Mongol victory was won by an advance guard of only 200,000 cavalry. . Kerowyn ^{Leave a note} 04:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Date

Was the emperor really captured on September 8? The article says that the army was surrounded on September 1, and that on September 3 the captive Zhengtong Emperor was sent to Esen's main camp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.69.166.132 (talk) 23:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

September 1 is also the date in Julia Lovell book "The Great Wall - China against the world". It might be the difference between Julian and Gregorian dates but the article must show consistency. Avihu (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bao

For the alternate name "Crisis of Tumubao" the pinyin is given as "Tǔmù zhī Biàn"; surely this is wrong. Someone who knows the correct tone of bao should fix it. Languagehat (talk) 16:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Thanks for pointing out. Lonelydarksky (暗無天日) _{contact me (聯絡)} 12:50, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Percieved content bias

Much of the unsourced material on this page has a tint of bias in favour of Emperor Yingzong at the expense of Wang Zhen. If any of the material about Wang Zhen was supported by citations that would be one thing, but the entire article holds Wang Zhen responsible for a series of blunders which led the crisis, and none of this information is supported by citation. This appears to be deliberately designed to undermine the role played by Esen Taish and to spare criticism of Emperor Yingzong. This page appears to be informed by a Han-Chinese nationalist interpretation of events.

Just at a guess, it is likely that no English-language academic text even exists that is supportive of the view taken in this page. This is not an uncommon issue in English-language pages on China and Chinese history on Wikipedia.

I recommend this article be locked and much of the content about Wang Zhen deleted. If anyone is willing to collaborate I may be able to provide at least some alternative material to cite. Bernardfitz (talk) 10:26, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nolan and Cathal's book

I'm not sure who added Nolan and Cathal's book as a reference. Please take an in-depth look at it yourselves, it mentions the total number of forces assembled including logistics but not the number that left the walls and partook in the battle itself.

the article is about the entire crisis, not the indivdual battle, so this seems appropriate. Also the source you're adding appears to be primary - you need a reliable secondary source.Pipsally (talk) 10:35, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oirat numbers

Right now the infobox says 270,000 Mongols (uncited) fought 500,000 Chinese. This is contradicted by another paragraph saying only 20,000 Mongols were present (also uncited). Could someone find the correct numbers, both for the Mongols and Chinese? RedStorm1368 (talk) 10:40, 25 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tumu Crisis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Min968 (talk · contribs) 04:34, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Borsoka (talk · contribs) 14:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it well written?
A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
Is it verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check?
A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

B. Reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose):

C. It contains no original research:

D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):
Is it neutral?
It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:
Is it stable?
It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:
Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?
A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Comments

As far as I can see this is your first GA. Please regard my comments as suggestions and feel free to disregard any of them if you think it would not improve the article, but please share your reasoning with me. Borsoka (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would expand the lead section with two or three sentences. Borsoka (talk) 14:37, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...the defense of the northern borders of the Ming dynasty began to deteriorate Why? (very short explanation) I would rephrase the sentence to clarify the venue: "the defense of the northern borders of Ming China began to deteriorate".
Weisuo?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Military peasants... Is this the common English term? A link or a short introduction?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Link "eunuchs" to Eunuchs in China, and "the steppe" to Mongolian–Manchurian grassland.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 23:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...as the outposts in present-day Inner Mongolia had been abandoned. Why and when? (very short explanation)
- Done. Min968 (talk) 12:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A note to "firearms of various types" to explain them?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A link or short explanation for hand rockets?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 11:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A link to Eastern Mongols?
..., giving them control over Mongolia Rephrase.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...to the young Khan of the Eastern Mongols Arughtai? (If they are not one and the same person, this should be clarified when Arughtai is introduced as the leader of the Eastern Mongols.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...inherited the title of taishi... In the previous sentences, we are not informed that Toghon bore the title taishi.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...ruled over Mongolia To what does the term Mongolia refer this context? The three Mongol tribes or present-day Mongolia?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Introduce Hami as a Chinese/Ming city.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Introduce Gansu as a Chinese/Ming province.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...his power extended to the borders of Korea Did he conquer or inherit the lands near Korea?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 01:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...he was seen as a threat by opponents of Wang Zhen,... Why? Why not by Wang Zhen?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 11:28, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
..., so did his need for these goods. Why?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 16:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
...This led to a significant influx of Mongols... Influx? Did they settle in the city?
- Done. Min968 (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
... for an imperial princess for his son Perhaps "for an imperial princess's hand for his son"/"for an imperial princess as a wife for his son"
- Done. Min968 (talk) 03:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka (talk) 15:40, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Tumu Crisis.jpg: a reliable source is needed to verify the map at Commons.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 16:40, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
File:MongolArcher.jpg: a reliable source is needed at Commons; US PD tag is missing.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 12:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
File:1639 Ming musketry volley formation.jpg: a reliable source is needed at Commons.
- Removed. Min968 (talk) 03:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Academic sources are cited. Although tertiary sources are also cited, the text is verified primarily by secondary sources.
Either add location to each title, or delete it everywhere.
- Done. Min968 (talk) 03:04, 23 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borsoka (talk) 14:30, 22 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]