Talk:Zionism

NPOV tag

Kindly explain exactly and in detail what the NPOV problems are for the tag. Selfstudier (talk) 22:30, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

We have had a (to me) hallucinatingly long and confusing number of remarks in the threads above, talking around NPOV apparently related to book and article selection. I challenge anyone to make headway figuring their way round the headaching reading of those exchanges. More 'exact' 'explanations' only promise to repeat those thread longueurs. So I invite Andrevan in particular to limit his remarks to one or two brief lines with specifics in the thread below, so editors can address the claims.Nishidani (talk) 22:40, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I just added the tag. A bunch of editors have expressed the idea that this article and in particular it's lead has POV issues. Per Nishidani's request, I bullet pointed some of the problems.

Of particular concern to me, there is the claim that "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state with ... as few Palestinian Arabs as possible".

There is only a single source which makes this specific claim. But relying on that source for this has some very serious problems.

1) The source is outwardly hostile toward Zionists with the author saying in the intro that he hopes his book makes Zionists feel uncomfortable.

"This author hopes that the discomfort that this book causes to Zionist and pro-Zionist readers will..."

2) The source is very poorly referenced. In one cherry picked quote it does make that claim but elsewhere the book says that there are many actions by Zionists which refute this claim and provides counter-examples This source also puts a timeframe on the claim where it was not true until 1948.

"in the 1948 war, when it became clear ... to establish a Jewish state with the smallest possible number of Palestinians ...

"...the existence of a high-level policy of ethnic cleansing at times and refutes that policy at other times. Those cases which are not consistent with the general policy ... These and other examples demonstrate that cases of “non-expulsion”.

So taken in it's entirety this source does not make this claim, nor do any of the other sources. To claim "Zionists" wanted this when sources say things like "Zionist leadership" is SYNTH. And to completely leave out the timeframe is incredibly misleading. Dan Murphy says that all of the authors who have expressed issues with POV are wrong, but hasn't explained that opinion at all. Nishidani made the request below, but he also hasn't responded.

So, I'd like to ask to hear from you guys a point-by-point explanation why there aren't any POV issues here both based on the issues expressed right here and elsewhere in the threads.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 16:25, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the tag. I showed two non antizionist sources above that state explicitly the claim which you take issue with. DMH223344 (talk) 16:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide precise references with page numbers? Here's what I see from one of these two sources, as referenced in the article:

"That most Zionist leaders wanted the largest possible Jewish state in Palestine with as few Arabs inside it as possible is hardly open to question

Going from "most Zionists leaders" to "Zionists" is SYNTH. Bob drobbs (talk) 16:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

slater (mythologies without end): From the outset of the Zionist movement all the major leaders wanted as few Arabs as possible in a Jewish state; if all other means failed, they were to be “transferred” by one means or another, including, if necessary, by force.

shlaim (three worlds): For the Zionists the top priority all along was to bring as many Jews as possible from all over the world to build up a state of their own. Their goal was an independent Jewish state spreading over as large a part of Palestine as possible, with as many Jews and as few Arabs as possible within its borders.

I have the ebooks, so I dont have page numbers. In any case it shouldnt be too hard to find if you also have the ebooks.

'Going from "most Zionists leaders" to "Zionists" is SYNTH' I disagree, since "zionsts" refers to the individuals guiding the political movement, it does not mean "every single zionist". This is a very specific point which should be easy to resolve without slapping a pov tag over the whole article. DMH223344 (talk) 16:58, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

> ' I disagree, since "zionsts" refers to the individuals guiding the political movement, it does not mean "every single zionist".

This is the very definition of SYNTH as it's your interpretation of what's said instead of what the sources actually say.

Slater says "all of the major leaders". In the part that's referenced in the article Shlaim also says" most Zionist leaders". And throughout the rest of the article referenced Shlaim's views are given as an opinion rather than a fact. Here's an example:

"According to historian Avi Shlaim, throughout its history up to present day, Zionism..."

Can you explain why in the lead we should state Shlaim's opinions as fact where else in the body it's treated as an opinion?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 17:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

"Can you explain why in the lead we should state Shlaim's opinions as fact where else in the body it's treated as an opinion?"

Because this is the mainstream interpretation of the goals of zionism DMH223344 (talk) 17:23, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

> Because this is the mainstream interpretation of the goals of zionism

What are you basing this claim on? Is this solely your opinion?

And again, can you explain why he's quoted in the article as an opinion but you wish to use his opinions as if they were fact in the lead? Bob drobbs (talk) 01:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bob drobbs please don't re-add the POV tag. Consensus is required for that tag to be added and you don't have it. TarnishedPath^talk 03:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPathPlease correct me if you have a different take on things. But IMO it seems we have a number of people who are complaining that there a bunch of POV bias has been added to this article recently.

As just one example, we have an author who is admittedly hostile to Zionists who is currently being relied on in the lead as-if his opinion is fact and beyond that his views are being misattributed. How is that not a POV problem?

On the other side, we have people who won't engage and seem happy to just leave the recently added bias in place. Nishidani put a request for a bullet list of issues then never responded. DMH2223344 did respond, but his views seem to be an unsupportable argument that an author's whose opinions are listed in the article should be treated in the lead as fact. And DanMurphy just said everyone who is pointing out POV issues is wrong without any explanation at all.

Isn't there any obligation from those who are opposed to the POV tag to be engaged and explain why there aren't any POV issues? Bob drobbs (talk) 19:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob, I already addressed your concern about the authors "opinion" which is supported by multiple other sources which make the same characterization of zionism. DMH223344 (talk) 19:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Bob drobbs, "a number of people" doesn't mean "consensus". TarnishedPath^talk 04:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Bulleted list of NPOV problems

Please list your objections (succinctly) with reference to specific passages, Below Nishidani (talk) 22:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

1. The sentence about Zionists goals is incredibly misleading, falsely implying that all Zionists wanted these things at all points in history.

2. Any consensus that there was, was rushed through with only a limited number of voices. It's very clear that consensus no longer exists.

3. The text which is now given does not seem to match any of the referenced sources nor does it seem to accurately summarize them as a whole. Some of the sources speak about "Zionist leaders" or "many Zionists". Not a single source says "Zionists wanted as few Palestinians Arabs as possible."

4. There's an section of the article which speaks in detail about which Zionists at which points in time supported a demographic majority in Palestine. Demographic majority is not synonymous with "as few as possible". This would appear to be the view held by the majority of sources and may also match the views given from the "best sources" now in progress. Instead what was used here was a few sources that seem to be outliers which been chosen specifically to promote the view "as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." I don't know if a single one of the sources used here will make the list of best sources.

A rushed through, cherry picked negative summary of Zionist ideology which doesn't match the rest of the article and falsely implies that all Zionists through all points in history believed that list of things is IMO a POV violation. The POV tag should be added and should remain until this is re-written based upon best sources.

Here's text which from that demographics section which would accurately reflect the text in the rest of the article: "By the time of the 1936 Arab Revolt ...every group in the Zionist mainstream was wedded to the idea of establishing a Jewish demographic majority there"

And let me ask this question again -- How many people do we need to add a POV tag?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 01:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob: Not a single source says "Zionists wanted as few Palestinians Arabs as possible."

Manna 2022, p. 33: The Zionists had two cherished objectives: fewer Arabs in the country and more land in the hands of the settlers.

Rouhana & Sabbagh-Khoury 2014, p. 6: It was obvious to most approaches within the Zionist movement – certainly to the mainstream ... that a Jewish state would entail getting rid of as many of the Palestinian inhabitants of the land as possible ... the logic of demographic elimination is an inherent component of the Zionist project as a settler-colonial project ...

Masalha 2012, p. 38: ... the Zionist Yishuv['s] ... demographic and land battles with the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine were always a battle for 'maximum land and minimum Arabs' ...

Pappe 2006, p. 250: ... the core of Zionism in a slightly different garb: to take over as much of Palestine as possible with as few Palestinians as possible.

Those are four of the sources cited for that sentence. Levivich (talk) 02:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Levivich "The core of Zionism", "Most approaches within the Zionist movement", "the Zionist Yishuv", and "the core of Zionism" are not synonymous with "Zionists".

You are right that a single source, which is an book about the Nakba which one can download for free does say, in the context of the Nakba that "Zionist wanted as few Palestinian Arabs as possible. This was written by someone who is an expert in Palestinian history _not_ an expert on Zionism. In no way should this source be used to define Zionism in the lead of the article, especially when this viewpoint isn't supported anywhere else in the article.

All of the other points stand.

--Bob drobbs (talk) 04:26, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Also... did you see this from the forward of Manna's book?

"This author hopes that the dis-comfort that this book causes to Zionist and pro-Zionist readers will drive them to seek out the truth ..."

This is not the best source to provide an unbiased and factual definition of "Zionism".

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 04:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

To sum up:

1. Just because something is the core of Zionism, the Zionist movement mainstream, and fought for by the Zionist Yishuv, doesn't mean it's what Zionists wanted
2. Ilan Pappe's book about The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by the aforementioned Zionist Yishuv is not an RS for Zionism
3. Manna is out because he's a WP:BIASEDSOURCE

Did I get that right? Levivich (talk) 06:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes. All of those things refer to mainstream Zionism or a majority of Zionists at a given moment in time. There were without question Zionists who were opposed to some or all of these ideas as late as the 1940s, so the text as-is is very misleading.

Yet again this text in the article is far more correct and seems better supported by the majority of sources. Note that it set a time-frame for when these things were happening, and speaks specifically about which Zionists at this time wanted them:

"the time of the 1936 Arab Revolt ...every group in the Zionist mainstream was wedded to the idea of establishing a Jewish demographic majority there"

3. Yes! From the intro to the book Manna seems absolutely hostile to Zionists, with a clearly stated goal of making Zionists uncomfortable. So maybe he could be included as an opinion, but he seems far too biased to be included as a source of any factual non-biased description of Zionism.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:15, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

"the time of the 1936 Arab Revolt ...every group in the Zionist mainstream was wedded to the idea of establishing a Jewish demographic majority there" How tho? Selfstudier (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the best sources will speak about mainstream Zionist groups after the 1900s wanting Jews to move to the Palestine mandate, and by the 1940s wanting to push out significant numbers of Palestinians. But as you've said elsewhere let's not word tweak until after we have the list of best sources.

Let me add, if one was to read the Manna book in it's entirety, even it does not support the cherry picked claim "as few Palestinian Arabs as possible". First he sets a time frame for these claims, and then he lists exceptions:

"That is what also happened in the 1948 war, when it became clear that the objective that enjoyed the unanimous support of Zionists of all inclinations was to establish a Jewish state with the smallest possible number of Palestinians."

"...the history of the Palestinians who remained in the Galilee both attests to the existence of a high-level policy of ethnic cleansing at times and refutes that policy at other times. Those cases which are not consistent with the general policy are due to causes connected to geography and the differential treatment of non-Muslims. The Druze were treated in a different way from the general Arab population. Christians were generally treated more leniently and with some sensitivity, out of fear of the reaction of Western states and churches. This unequal treatment of Palestinians in Haifa and the Galilee emerged during the months of war and several years after. These and other examples demonstrate that cases of “non-expulsion”...

So.... as the primary source for this claim actually refutes the cherry picked quote, will you get on board with the POV tag until after we finish up the process of reviewing the best sources?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 20:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

If you want to discuss this specific issue further, we can do that. But just because we are discussing a specific line does not mean a POV tag is justified. DMH223344 (talk) 21:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

This specific line in the lead completely misrepresents the nature of Zionism by cherry picking a quote out of a source which if it was taken in it's entirety refutes the claim and also puts a time frame on it.

How does that not justify a POV tag?

--Bob drobbs (talk) Bob drobbs (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

So you want sources which are not antizionist? Here you go:

slater: From the outset of the Zionist movement all the major leaders wanted as few Arabs as possible in a Jewish state; if all other means failed, they were to be “transferred” by one means or another, including, if necessary, by force.

shlaim: For the Zionists the top priority all along was to bring as many Jews as possible from all over the world to build up a state of their own. Their goal was an independent Jewish state spreading over as large a part of Palestine as possible, with as many Jews and as few Arabs as possible within its borders.

When the literature speaks about "Zionism" or "Zionists", they mean the mainstream movement or ideology. They are not making claims about every single self-identified zionist to ever exist. DMH223344 (talk) 19:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

No it's not clear that consensus no longer exists. You disagreeing with something doesn't make it no longer the case. TarnishedPath^talk 02:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath At minimum, Andre and I see issues with this text. How many people do we need disagreeing here before we can agree that there isn't consensus any longer?

Also, with my other question. Currently at minimum, Andre, CoreTheApple, and I all see POV issues. What will it take to get the POV tag added?

--Bob drobbs (talk) 04:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Consensus is required to add a POV tag. Three editors does not make a consensus. TarnishedPath^talk 07:06, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear no-one is preventing the adding of a tag of any description but if the reasons for placing it don't hold up in discussion, it will likely get reverted. Just repeating nocon is insufficient. Anyone is at liberty to conduct an RFC, no-one is preventing that either. Selfstudier (talk) 09:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The Andrevan, Drobbs, and Apple accounts are wrong, as has been ably and patiently explained by others above.Dan Murphy (talk) 01:50, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I've bullet pointed reasons, and I've expanded on those thoughts above.

The claim made about Zionism is taken from a source which is outwardly hostile toward Zionism with the author saying he hopes his book makes Zionists uncomfortable. Beyond that, the source is badly referenced as if you look at the source in it's entirety it refutes the cherry picked claim and also puts a time frame on it "1948".

So instead of handwaving that we're wrong, please share point-by-point where you disagree.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) Bob drobbs (talk) 18:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Scope

Since the preceding section has once again been derailed, let's get back on track, what is the WP:SCOPE of this article?

Currently:

Zionism[a] is an ethno-cultural nationalist[1][fn 1] movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside Europe.[4][5][6] With the rejection of alternate proposals for a Jewish state, it eventually focused on the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine,[7][8] a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism,[9][10] and of central importance in Jewish history. Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible.[11] Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became Israel's national or state ideology.[12][7][13]

Andrevan suggestion:

Zionism is the nationalist movement that emerged in its modern form during the late 19th century with the goal of establishing a Jewish state in the historical region of Palestine, known as the Holy Land or the biblical Eretz Yisrael. This took for the form of small agricultural colonies and land purchases prior to the Ottoman Empire giving way to British administration and partition which formally drew lines for the Jews and Arabs of Mandate Palestine. Zionism arose in response to growing anti-Semitism in Europe, and the failure of Jewish emancipation efforts. Formulated into political Zionism by such figures as Herzl, Pinsker, the movement's core ideology centered on the "negation of the diaspora" and the belief that Jews needed a sovereign state with a Hebrew national culture. Early Zionists such as Ahad Ha'am drew on historical and religious ties in the revival of Hebrew and historical Jewish traditions of aliyah to create a new secular modern identity. With the support of Western powers, the movement ultimately succeeded in establishing the State of Israel in 1948. Today, Zionism remains a complex and controversial ideology, with supporters viewing it as a national liberation movement for self-determination and opponents criticizing it as a form of ethnonationalism.

Selfstudier version (response to Andrevan):

Zionism is a complex and controversial ideology, with supporters viewing it as a national liberation movement for self-determination (this is was?) and opponents criticizing it as a form of ethnonationalism pursuing colonial settlement and expropriation. It emerged during the late 19th century in response to growing antisemitism in Europe, and the failure of Jewish emancipation efforts (?), with the goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine. Supported by Western powers, the movement succeeded in establishing the State of Israel in 1948. Since then...?

Anyone may feel free to insert their versions of what they think Zionism is...

Selfstudier (talk) 17:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I am strongly against the first sentence being of the form "supporters think __ critics think __". Zionism is not a mystery, we can define it in explicit terms. In any case, I'll repeat what I said above which is that the mainstream zionist narrative is that zionism is ethnic nationalism (they sometimes also throw in "cultural").

"critics" of zionism describe it similar to masalha:

Zionism is a colonialist movement in its inception, aggressive and expansionist in its goal, racist in its configurations, and fascist in its means and aims. Israel, in its capacity as the spearhead of this destructive movement and as the pillar of colonialism, is a permanent source of tension and turmoil in the Middle East, in particular, and to the international community in general.

with key emphasis on "racist" and "fascist" and Israel's role as a regional and global actor. DMH223344 (talk) 18:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Each person proposing their own version seems like the wrong way to do this. Let the two editors who think the lead is not balanced propose specific suggestions with specific justifications and we can discuss them individually. DMH223344 (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

One sentence at a time. We will never agree in this way. DMH223344 (talk) 18:50, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, we are not agreeing any other way either so might as well give it a go. Selfstudier (talk) 18:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

My take was that it's because the complaining editors have jumped directly to proposing their own versions and assumed we agree a full rewrite is necessary. I don't think a full rewrite is necessary. It's so much simpler to just discuss one sentence at a time. That's how we were able to reach a consensus on the use of "colonization" and the sentence: "Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible"

Andre and bit are taking us back to square one, as nish pointed out above, framing zionism from a purely zionist perspective. The motivation being the vague claim that we focus too much on "critical" aspects. Andre was specific about what he considered missing from the lead, but most of it was actually already there. But somehow he is arguing that now all those aspects need to be present in the first paragraph, not just in the lead. DMH223344 (talk) 19:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I said I don't think a rewrite is necessary. I really don't think I'm framing Zionism from a purely Zionist perspective. Is that what you read from my version? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:09, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Please stay away from assuming other editors' motivations and just focus on the edits themselves. You may privately think another editor's motivation is to present the topic from a particular point of view, and that's fine, you're welcome to think it privately. :D It really isn't productive to say it. You can say the edit presents the topic from a particular point of view. Valereee (talk) 19:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion below is only about the first sentence, actually the first part of the first sentence, what's your take on that? Selfstudier (talk) 20:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Have we identified any specific issues with the first sentence, other than the use of jargon? The initial discussion was about NPOV, but i dont think that has been mentioned for the first sentence specifically. DMH223344 (talk) 21:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think those who disagree have indeed argued that the first sentence and first paragraph are not NPOV due to DUE, WEIGHT, IMPARTIAL, BALASP. I'm not claiming my version is perfect or even good, but there are issues with the current one, and I don't want to keep repeating it; the only reason why I'm saying it now is because for some reason editors insist on saying that those that disagree haven't raised issues when they have been raised; it's uncharitable. Andre🚐 21:06, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, if you want to talk about the first sentence, let's do that. Let's stay focused on that then. What is missing from the first sentence, or what is included in the first sentence that you disagree with? DMH223344 (talk) 21:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence should be a basic, uncontroversial description that pro- and anti-Zionists would agree on. It should mention the most salient aspects of the BESTSOURCES' description. Then sentences 2 and 3 can contrast the ranges of views. For example, formlated in Stanislawski. Zionism—the nationalist movement calling for the establishment and support of an independent state for the Jewish people in its ancient homeland—is today one of the most controversial ideologies in the world. Its supporters see it as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people that came to fruition in the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Its opponents regard it as one of the last forms of colonial oppression in the world, defined by Israel’s occupation of the West Bank in the name of a racist ideology increasingly turning Israel into an apartheid state. As it is right now we have an anti-Zionist view as the definition. Andre🚐 21:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

What is exclusively an antizionist perspective about the first sentence as it is?

Looking at just your first sentence here, you've swapped out a concrete definition of what zionism is about (answering where, when and how) with a less informative one which uses explicitly zionist terminology without qualification ("ancient homeland"). Also, emphasizing the "controversial" aspect misses that there is wide agreement on what Zionism is in a scholarly context. See my additions to the Beliefs section which where written mostly using Zionist or non-Zionist sources: Avineri, Shimoni, Shapira, Penslar. Antizionists frequently agree on the basics: Finkelstein, Masalha, Rabkin. I'm happy to go through that exercise with you to confirm that. DMH223344 (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

"Ancient homeland" is verbatim from Black, Stanislawski, and Laqueur, with other variations in others, such as the discussion in Engel. We did not include Avineri, Shimoni, Finkelstein, or Rabkin in the list of BESTSOURCES, though I agree they are very good sources, it's contrary to the purpose of the exercise and distorting. Almost every source does say Zionism is controversial, too. Can you make a draft, using the agreed-upon list of bestsources, describing what you think are the salient points for sentence 1 or para1? The current one doesn't match and that is the nature of weight issue. Andre🚐 22:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Am I one of those two? I was responding to the source survey where there seems to be more weight on anti-Semitism, the concept of the Jewish diaspora, language, and culture than we currently have. Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Bitspectator deluxe version: Zionism is an ethno-cultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a specific land. Zionism developed in the context of anti-Semitism in Europe, which had been persistent since the formation of the Jewish diaspora. Zionism was seen as an alternative to failing efforts to achieve Jewish emancipation across Europe. With the rejection of alternate proposals for a Jewish state, it eventually focused on the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history. Early Zionists drew on these historical and religious ties in order to create a new secular identity, carrying out a revival of Hebrew and adopting it as an official language. Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible. Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism became Israel's national or state ideology. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:04, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

'anti-Semitism in Europe, which had been persistent since the formation of the Jewish diaspora.' Sigh. Patience. The Jewish diaspora began well over 2,000 years ago, before 'Europe' in anything other than a geographical entity existed. And you would have an extremely hard task finding evidence of 'anti-semitism' as we understand it in Europe for the Ist millennium (as opposed to anti-Judaism). Apart from quietly reading some books on Zionism specifically, perhaps you might profit from browsing Simon Schama's 2 volume (so far) The Story of the Jews to get some basic perspective and background.Nishidani (talk) 20:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Your opposition to "anti-Semitism in Europe, which had been persistent since the formation of the Jewish diaspora" is:

1) The Jewish diaspora began over 2000 years ago.

Okay. And?

2) Europe only existed as a geographic entity.

Okay? It's being used as a geographic term.

3) Anti-Semitism for most of that time could not be distinguished from anti-Judaism.

Okay? The term doesn't only refer to racial anti-Semitism.

Is your position that there should be no reference to anti-Semitism in the opening paragraph, or that only my specific wording is wrong? Bitspectator ⛩️ 20:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The sentence was uninformed by any precise knowledge of the topic,-be it Zionism, Jewish history or the history of antisemitism and therefore replying to what I take to be tongue-in-cheeky comebacks is pointless. Nishidani (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

"You are wrong because you don't know what you are talking about". That's your position? Bitspectator ⛩️ 21:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Concur with Bitspectator. Andre🚐 21:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Several of the sources on our list (and others that aren't) specifically dispute that Zionism arose in response to, or primarily in response to, a rise in antisemitism in Europe, characterizing that as a Zionist myth. I don't think we should say that in the lead, or at least we need to be more careful about how we say it. Levivich (talk) 21:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I had changed the wording to "developed in the context of anti-Semitism in Europe" to try and avoid that point while still making a connection to anti-Semitism. Bitspectator ⛩️ 21:48, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Could you be more specific, please? Because almost all of the BESTSOURCES I saw said antisemitism right there in the first or 2nd sentence. Andre🚐 21:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Stanislawski 2017, pp. 9-10:

But here one must be very precise about chronology: the all-too-frequent claim that modern Jewish nationalism was born in response to anti-Semitism or to the outbreak of violent attacks (“pogroms”) against the Jews which began in the Russian Empire in 1881–82 is quite simply wrong: the first expressions of this new ideology were published well before the spread of the new anti-Semitic ideology and before the pogroms of the early 1880s. This is not to deny that the pogroms and the spread of anti-Semitic ideology convinced many Jews of the veracity of the modern nationalist, including the Zionist, solutions to the “Jewish problem.” But once more, it is essential to understand that the fundamental cause of the emergence of modern Jewish nationalism was the rise, on the part of Jews themselves, of new ideologies that applied the basic tenets of modern nationalism to the Jews, and not a response to persecution.

Indeed, the rise of anti-Semitism even in its most virulent forms did not lead the vast majority of Jews worldwide to abandon their belief in Judaism as a religious faith, whether in its traditional or modernist versions, or their belief that legal emancipation—and its corollary of upward economic and social mobility—would solve the problem of the Jews. Thus, even in the face of the rise of anti-Semitism, for most of its history Zionism remained a distinctly minority view in Jewish communities around the world, opposed by the vast majority of rabbinic and lay leaders. This situation changed only after the murder of six million Jews in the Holocaust, when the need for an independent Jewish state to serve as a safe haven for Jews became not only widespread but central to Jewish consciousness throughout the world.

Edelheit 2000 pp. xv-xvi:

It would be wrong, therefore, to emphasize only external factors in the rise of Zionism. Although antisemitism played an important role in the origin of some nationalist schemes for the restoration of Jewish sovereignty, the external catalyst could (and in fact did) drive Jews away from Zionism and toward other ideologies that offered -- or seemed to offer -- a solution for the "Jewish Problem." ... Zionism must thus be viewed as deriving in part from an external catalyst (antisemitism) but representing developments of an inner dynamic within the Jewish people at the end of the nineteenth century.

Levivich (talk) 22:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed quotes, but these seem to simply temper the statement or add a bit of nuance and not refute it outright; while Stanislawski does clearly say "simply wrong" he appears to be responding to the idea that modern Jewish nationalism was not born of antisemitism, but not that antisemitism was a major factor. Also, when there is a conflict of equally reliable sources, e.g. some which do flatly make the statement that Stanislawski believes to be incorrect, such as Forriol, Wikipedia should not take sides unless there is a clear academic consensus, but portray the range of scholarly opinion. Edelheit says "antisemitism played an important role" and Stanislawski says "the pogroms and the spread of anti-Semitic ideology convinced many Jews of the veracity of the modern nationalist, including the Zionist, solutions." Applying this principle to the quotes here would yield a statement along the lines of, my phrasing, "While many scholars have described Zionism as a response to antisemitic persecution, others point out that it predated the pogroms of the 1880s, and therefore should be understood as an ideological growth of modern nationalism, to which the response to antisemitism was a factor, but Zionism is best understood as,..." and then I would go into something like this from Penslar: the belief that Jews constitute a nation that has a right and need to pursue collec-tive self-determination within historic Palestine. Like other forms of nationalism, Zionism is both an ideology—a coherent, sustained inter-pretation of experience in terms of fundamental values—and a move-ment: a set of practices designed to realize ideological goals. Andre🚐 22:39, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Stanislawski (who attempts to make his book a little contrarian to justify its place on the market, imho) acknowledges that a connection is made with antisemitism in many sources when he makes the point that they say this all too frequently. His version of it - a direct causal connection from antisemitism to Zionism - is a bit of a straw man, and we'd definitely want something more nuanced than that. His claim that antisemitism didn't get going until after Zionism was formulated seems to be contradicted by the best sources on antisemitism, which definitely don't start it with the Russian pogroms. I think Bitspectator's "developed in the context of antisemitism in Europe" might be the best way to address this issue. BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Anybody besides me think that "ethno-cultural nationalist movement", while accurate, is WP:JARGON that will be completely meaningless to 99% of readers? Levivich (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

'Ethno-cultural nationalism' is pointless. Ethnonationalism covers things like the defense of 'a national culture' against minorities, immigrant or other, who are perceived as not (as they frequently are) assimilating, but as bearers of an alien culture and identity. The other reason is that the compression of three things, which are often fluid, excludes religion, as is descriptions of 'ethno-religious' statehood. But we are unfortunately slipping away from the original effort to resolve problems, as has been noted, by generating every editor's favoured version. This is getting to look like a chaotic waste of our time here.Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems to be spawning some discussion. How would you like me to rephrase my comments? Bitspectator ⛩️ 20:02, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

But isn't that what we were doing anyway? (I'm just looking back up this page, never mind all the stuff we just archived). Selfstudier (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't have strong feelings about it.

1) Ethnic nationalist 2) Ethnonationalist 3) Cultural nationalist 4) Nationalist

Which do you prefer? Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:14, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait -- do you think those are four different things, or all the same thing? If they're different, I prefer the one that's correct :-) Levivich (talk) 18:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think they are different but all can be used to describe Zionism. I think Zionism is "ethno-cultural nationalist". I lean against (3) because I think that is a lesser component of Zionism. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:23, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe "ethno-nationalism" because that is what critics accuse it of, namely, ethnocentrism. "ethno-cultural nationalism" is less clear though perhaps more technically accurate. Andre🚐 21:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Helpful wl, Ethnic nationalism Selfstudier (talk) 18:20, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

We should look at the refs as well, Conforti, Gans and Medding for the current phrasing. Selfstudier (talk) 18:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

We have both Gans and Conforti (another 2021 by them here espousing the ethnocultural nationalism, as Gans puts it "Nonetheless, Zionism is fundamentally an ethnocultural nationalism" (which is just a variety of ethnic nationalism) so I think we do not need Medding. Selfstudier (talk) 18:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's better to link ethnocultural nationalist as ethnocultural nationalist. I hover over "ethnocultural" expecting to see a description for that concept (pairing of ethnicity and culture?) but instead see a description for "ethnic nationalism". Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep, did that. Selfstudier (talk) 14:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Personally, think the term is jargony and not less supported by the scholarly consensus than simply "nationalist". Nationalist encompasses the range from political nationalism (Herzl) to cultural nationalism (Ha'am) to ethnic nationalism (the Revisionists) without making any of them the defining form. Yes, a couple of scholars use terms like "ethnocultural", but most do not. All of them, however, use the word "nationalist". BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Bitspectator deluxe version: "...colonization of a specific land...eventually focused on the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine"? Are you rolling territorialism or all of Jewish nationalism under Zionism? fiveby(zero) 18:49, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I think territorialism is described as part of Zionism. I don't think all forms of Jewish nationalism are described as being part of Zionism. How would you phrase those lines? Bitspectator ⛩️ 19:00, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Some "Zionism is..." quotes

Penslar 2023, p. 1: Zionism, in turn, is the belief that Jews constitute a nation that has a right and need to pursue collective self-determination within historic Palestine. Like other forms of nationalism, Zionism is both an ideology— a coherent, sustained interpretation of experience in terms of fundamental values—and a movement: a set of practices designed to realize ideological goals. Engel 2013, "To the reader": Indeed, neutral descriptions are hard to find. To its many advocates the name suggests a genuinely democratic and progressive movement of national liberation that has given an oppressed and homeless people the freedom, security and dignity denied it for two thousand years. Its opponents, in contrast, claim that in pursuing their aims Zionists have actually created a new oppressed and homeless people. Moreover, they charge, the sources of Zionism are the same ones that bred western colonialism and racism, meaning that its ideas must be rejected by all right-thinking human beings. Halperin 2021, pp. 21-29: [p. 21] Zionism, as the term suggests, is an ideology ... [p. 28] The movement began in late-nineteenth-century Central and Eastern Europe ... [pp. 28-29] Core aspects of Zionism, including Jews’ historical experiences of discrimination and violence, engagement in minority politics within multinational empires, efforts to modernize and teach Hebrew as a national language, and affinity with but also ambivalence toward imperial powers, cannot be appreciated outside an ethnonational framework ... [p. 29] But Zionist memory also has a core feature that is not especially amenable to these comparisons: its emphasis on histories of rural agricultural settlement in a distant and, despite its symbolic importance, unfamiliar land. Stanislawski 2017, p. 1: Zionism—the nationalist movement calling for the establishment and support of an independent state for the Jewish people in its ancient homeland—is today one of the most controversial ideologies in the world. Its supporters see it as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people that came to fruition in the creation of the State of Israel in 1948. Its opponents regard it as one of the last forms of colonial oppression in the world today, defined by Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its millions of Palestinian residents in the name of a racist ideology increasingly turning Israel into an apartheid state. Alam 2009, pp. 3-4: We focus on the germ of the Zionist idea, its core ambition—clearly discernible at its launching—to create a Jewish state in the Middle East by displacing the natives ... The Zionists proposed to lead the Jews—who had been for millennia a global religious community—into Palestine and turn them into a nation with a land and state of their own. In the early years of the movement, most Jews dismissed Zionism as utopian adventurism, since the Jews lacked the basic prerequisites of a nation state. They were not a nation, as commonly understood; nor did they possess a national territory. In order to overcome these grave deficiencies, the Zionists would have to find a surrogate mother country, seize Palestine, persuade Western Jews to colonize this land, and empty Palestine of its native population.

Above are some quotes I found for "Zionism is..."-type statements, or summaries of what Zionism is or its core features are. Based on this, I think the first sentence should say (1) ideology, (2) movement, (3) nationalism, (4) late 19th c., (5) Europe, (6) Jewish state, (7) Palestine. Levivich (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Is it unreasonable to at least try to do the survey for 10 and not 5 sources? Don't they all at least include such a sentence? Do you want someone else, such as myself, to do the other 5? Andre🚐 23:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes that would be great, thank you. Levivich (talk) 23:11, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I also quoted more Penslar since you didn't really let him finish his thought. and the Engel quote is not from Ch1 but the foreword so here is a different Engel quote. These sources talk about the return to the biblical homeland and the messianic motivations of Zionism along with the secular haskalah.

Some Zionism is... quotes, part 2

more Penslar, p. 2-3 Until 1948 Zionism’s goal was to create a Jewish homeland in a territory with which Jewish civilization was intimately linked: the ancient Land of Israel. Zion is a biblical word that refers to a hill in Jerusalem and, by extension, to the city of Jerusalem and thence to the entirety of the ancient Land of Israel. Because it was tied to a specific territory, Zionism had a common vocabulary with other nationalisms, which were all territo-rially based. Unlike other nationalisms, however, pre-1948 Zionism’s claim on territory was aspirational, based in ancient memories and future hopes. Until well into the twentieth century, a negligible number of Jews lived in the Land of Israel. Even after the State of Israel was created, its population grew into the millions, and it became a regional military superpower, Zionism retained a sense of fragility, vulnerability, and incompleteness.These feelings account for the ongoing salience of Zionism, a word that connotes more than an idea or movement. It is a belief that Jews have a moral right and historic need for self-determination within his-toric Palestine. It is a project to gather Jews from throughout the world, to ensure that they dwell in safety, and to nurture a homeland that is in turn a source of inspiration for Jews everywhere. To the extent that Israeli Jews and Israel’s supporters abroad see this project as incomplete, Zionism still has relevance. Engel, chapter 1, "The idea of a Jewish state. Let's start with basics" (page is unmarked but I assume p.1) During the 1890s 'Zionism' began to be used as a designation for certain activities aimed at encouraging Jews from different parts of the world to settle Forriol p. 21-22 Zionism as a political movement is an ethnic and organic nationalism. One has to start from the idea contrary to what Jewish nationalism maintains, the nation is a relatively recent historical construct, not having existed since biblical times. But the rabbinic vision of their religion reinforced their ethnic consciousness. Persecution in Europe due to anti-Semitism and the longing for Zion (the belief in a homeland to which they were destined to return when their exile ended), both of which were religious in nature, facilitated the development of Zionism. This ideology emerged in the late 19th century in a context of nationalist effervescence in Europe, influenced by it, and because its promoters instrumentalised the biblical paradigm of 'the promised land - the chosen people' as a mobilising slogan for the Jewish community abroad, whose aim was to seize the entire Palestinian land or at least the territory between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. This official ideological and political movement of the state of Israel carries three fundamental connotations: nationalism, racism and colonialism, which will determine what happens to the Palestinian people and the future of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Edelheit, p. 3: Whereas Zionism is, at its root, a secular nationalist movement framed as a modern revolution against elements of the Jewish past, from its inception Zionism also harked back to a two-millennia! tradition of hope for the restoration of Jewry to its ancestral homeland. Therefore, examining the Jewish understanding of concepts of land, statehood, nationalism, and national sovereignty will, therefore, provide key data for understanding Zionism's appeal and its meaning. At the outset, a few basic premises must be understood. First, the Jewish religious tradition does not distinguish clearly be- tween religious, national, racial, or ethnic identities. Second, nonetheless, a strong sense of bondedness exists throughout the Jewish tradition and is expressed in terms of peoplehood or, in modern terminology, as 3 a concept of nationality (OJJ, Am). Third, that from the very beginning this sense of people- hood was identified with the Land of Israel, or (to use the traditional Jewish term) Eretz Israel. The fact that Eretz Israel was not seen as just a homeland, but also as a land of destiny, was intimately related to this sense of peoplehood and meant that Eretz Israel was always seen as central to Jewish life, in theory if not in practice. Finally, throughout the long years of exile Jews always hoped for some form of redemption and return to their ancestral homeland, with a small settlement existing almost continuously. Dieckhoff, p. 3 Zionism, however, was only a special and belated expression of a multifacted national mobilisation arising from the crisis in Jewish society in the eighteenth century. Amar-Dahl, p. 4 Zionism emerged in Europe in the middle of the nineteenth century with the defined goal of terminating the “abnormal” political situation of the Jewish diaspora, that is, statelessness of the Jews, and of creating a mode of collective life based on a national state. Arising from the emergency situation posed by an increasingly rampant racist anti-Semitism in Europe, Jewish nationalism was funneled into a movement, with the “negation of the diaspora” forming the core of its ideology and the starting point of its politics. Wagner, p. unmarked but it's a few pages into the introduction, a footnote marked 7 and quoted as the "thesis of the present volume." Zionism is a doctrine that provides the State of Israel with a firm—even dogmatic—religio-national identity justified by an appeal to God's will, to historical memory, and to mythical racial ancestry Brenner, introduction, p.4: Zionism aimed to overcome this sense of otherness by forc- ing the Jews to fit into categories valid in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Once they were universally regarded as a nation and had their own state, they would no longer be vul- nerable to assaults against their alleged uniqueness and cease to be victims of antisemitic attacks. The Zionist Joseph Heller summarized this attitude when he wrote shortly before the State of Israel was founded: “A nation, like an individual, is normal and healthy only when it is able to use all forms of innate gifts and harmoniously to unfold all forms of economic and cultural creativeness. For this purpose the nation needs political freedom and the right to utilize the natural resources of the soil as the basis of its economic growth. The task of normalization means for the Jews a real ‘transvaluation of values,’ because of the unquestioned hegemony of the spirit throughout Diaspora history. . . . Above all, the nation must ‘return to the soil’ not only in the physical sense but also in the psychological.”6 Seventy years after the establishment of the State of Israel, Israel has achieved many goals of the Zionist movement

Andre🚐 23:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

To expand a bit on the Engel quote, the full sentence is During the 1890s ‘Zionism’ began to be used as a designation for certain activities aimed at encouraging Jews from different parts of the world to settle close to Jerusalem, in a region many called Palestine., then he briefly mentions the establishment of the Zionist Organization (ZO) in 1897, the establishment of Israel in 1948, and the ZO's redefinition of Zionism in 1951, 1968, and 2004. The next paragraph is If you think those facts tell a simple story, think again! Actually, they raise questions whose answers are not simple at all. The rest of Chapter 1 asks and answers these questions:

First, what exactly is ‘the Jewish people’ for whom the ZO sought a home? ... Similarly, it isn’t obvious at all what the phrase ‘a Jewish state’ signifies. ... There is also a historical problem. Does the fact that the word ‘Zionism’ first came to be widely used at a relatively recent moment in historical time (the 1890s) mean that the basic idea the word came to signify – that Jews from different parts of the world ought to settle in Palestine and seek a ‘home’ there ‘secured by public law’ – is itself only a bit more than a century old? ... What does it mean to say that ‘the Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people’? ... But what of the Declaration’s next assertion: ‘Exiled from the Land of Israel, the Jewish people remained faithful to it in all the countries of their dispersion, never ceasing to pray and hope for their return and the restoration of their national freedom’? ... What happened to Jews in the nineteenth century that could have prompted the new direction that the founding of the ZO signified?

Engel concludes the chapter with (italics in the original):

This was the basic idea of Zionism. Its fundamental impulse was less an ancient Jewish religious imperative than fear that the large majority of the world’s Jews would soon find themselves without adequate protection for their lives and livelihoods. That fear had a real basis in the spread of national movements in nineteenth-century Eastern Europe. By adopting the premisses of those movements instead of fighting them, Zionists hoped to make the nationalist current work to Jews’ advantage instead of their detriment. In other words, had the concept of national states not taken root in Europe towards the end of the nineteenth century, it is doubtful that a body like the ZO would have come into being at that time. Similarly, the language of Israel’s Declaration of Independence – which asserted that ‘it is the natural right of the Jewish people to lead, as do all other nations, an independent existence in its sovereign State’ – must be understood first of all in light of basic nineteenth-century European concepts of states, nations and citizenship.

Those concepts cannot explain everything in the Declaration, however. For one thing, the idea that, in a world of national states, it was incumbent upon Jews to resettle in a territory where they could form a majority and create a national state of their own does not tell us why that territory had to be Palestine. Indeed, some early Zionists thought about other territories as well. Were traditional Jewish religious imperatives central in directing Zionist attentions to Palestine specifically, or did more immediate historical developments play a decisive role in this feature of the movement as well?

I think this sets out some of (what Engel views as) the basic features or aspects of "what is Zionism?" Levivich (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

and the ZO's redefinition of Zionism in 1951, 1968, and 2004 Thank you, I am quite interested in this ie what is Z now (post Israel) as opposed to what it was to start with. Selfstudier (talk) 09:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

The Jerusalem Program has the 1951 and 2004 but not the 1968, which is at the History of Zionism article (but not the other two).

From the not so great JVL source in the former "Questions also emerged concerning the relationship of the new State with the Zionist Organization. The Congress adopted a resolution calling on the State of Israel to recognize the WZO as the representative body of the Jewish people in all matters that involved the organized participation of Diaspora Jewry in the upbuilding of Israel. In 1952 the Knesset acted upon this resolution, when it passed the WZO and Jewish Agency for Israel (Status) Law. Selfstudier (talk) 15:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Self, in the book, Engel cites the American Zionist Movement's website for reproductions of the revisions to the Jerusalem program:

• 1897 (Basel Program): "...establishing for the Jewish people a publicly and legally assured home in Palestine..."
• 1951 (Jerusalem Program): "...the consolidation of the State of Israel..."
• 1968 (Revised Jerusalem Program): "...strengthening of the State of Israel..."
• 2004 (current version, I think back to just calling it "Jerusalem Program", like it never changed), which added some, um, details, like "...and Jerusalem, its capital..." and other pro-Zionist stuff

Levivich (talk) 15:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry about the tangent, but Engel is alas one of those who mistranslate the first sentence of the Basel Program, perhaps due to not knowing that public law is a thing. It says nothing about "publicly". Rather it says "öffentlich-rechtlich gesicherten" which is a standard German legal phrase meaning "secured under public law". I wrote a long analysis at Talk:Basel Program with a list of sources that use "under public law". Recently I noticed that the constitution of the World Zionist Organization also cites the Basel Program as "under public law" [1]. Zero^talk 09:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Use of "best sources" list

I had thought we had decided on a list of "best sources" on which to base the outline of the article and how much weight to give to each aspect. Somehow it seems we're also restricting the lead to be based on that same source list? I dont think we agreed on that. DMH223344 (talk) 05:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't put it quite as categorically as that. We first decided to compile a list and see where we got to and whether there was even any agreement on that. Atm, we have restricted the best sources list to after 2000 (originally it was academic presses but that seems to have been dispensed with). There have not been any restrictions on sources for the article body, to the contrary, we decided that such sources would be necessary for detail. Ultimately the lead should be a summary of the body and without any citations, the idea being that summary statements in the lead should reflect the article body (as usual) but that issues of weight should be resolved by reference to the best sources.

Idk if that makes sense? Selfstudier (talk) 09:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes it makes sense. But above the editors have done the exercise of looking at the first chapter of these books and are proposing to rewrite the first paragraph of the lead based only on those. I disagree with that approach. The lead summarizes the body. For a definition of zionism, we should first agree on body content, then summarize that for the lead. DMH223344 (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep, that's right usually, these are slightly peculiar circumstances tho, maybe we can do it in tandem. Selfstudier (talk) 15:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with either lead-first, body-first, or tandem. In theory there shouldn't be a conflict. For example, if the sources suggest the body should have sections X, Y, and Z, then the lead should also summarize X, Y, and Z. Levivich (talk) 15:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Why all this concentration on the lead when the body of the article is in such rough shape? Following the antisemitism discussion for the lead above we might take for instance Laqueur's first thesis: "Zionism is a response to antisemitism." and argue about that as a source and a conclusion in the lead, but that would be a pretty useless effort as far as actually informing the reader goes. More productive might be to look at what else he says on the matter and seek agreement across multiple "best sources" to improve the text and citations for the next to last paragraph of the "Overview" section. I don't wish to reignite any "colonization" debates or on specific wording in the lead, but for many of these hotly debated issues there seems to often be a lack of article content giving tools to the reader to understand the conclusions argued over. For instance the article introduces to the reader that there was another people living on the ground as "Zionists wanted...as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." Greater understanding for the reader might come from something like presenting the counter-example of Yishaq Epstein's "The Hidden Question" within the body. fiveby(zero) 14:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

In principle, I don't disagree, except that I still think an effort ought to be made at the History of Zionism page in addition, which is what the antisemitism thing relates to but there is no mention of it in the lead there, which should then be summarized in this article. Selfstudier (talk) 15:10, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree we should first focus on the body, and the lead should summarize it. My attention to the lead comes from the recent discussion about whether it has npov issues. DMH223344 (talk) 15:24, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Part of the issue with the lead is that many readers read it and get no further. Their entire opinion is formed by the lead. And somehow the lead of this article has become a mess that contradicts itself, with rushed through "consensus" using misrepresented sources. Did Zionists want:

A) Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible ...

B) The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine

We currently claim both things within differing parts of the lead.

I'd like to make sure that if we have any instances especially in the lead, but also the rest of the article where the best sources say one thing ("demographic majority") and a list of other sources claim something else ("as few Palestinian Arabs as possible") that we have a clear understanding of how we're going to handle it.

P.S. Sorry for duplicating this topic below. I didn't see this one before making my comment.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) Bob drobbs (talk) 23:24, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

How do these contradict each other? They are not mutually exclusive. DMH223344 (talk) 23:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

They are clearly different goals. "As few Palestinian as possible" is one one of achieving a demographic majority, but seeking a demographic majority does not in any way imply "as few Palestinian Arabs as possible".

If the best sources say one thing and a set of some other sources say something different, we should give little weight to the sources which differ from the best sources (particularly in the lead), right?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 00:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there a contradiction between:

A) they wanted it to be as much a square as possible

B) they all want it to be a rectangle Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:57, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Journal articles are an example of sourcing that we may wish to include, though not all such articles are necessarily good, need to weigh author, number of citation, citations by best sources, etcetera. This is usual anyway, the only thing we might be doing differently is using the best sources for a sanity check on other sources. Selfstudier (talk) 08:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The rest of Line 1?

The first part of sentence one is cleared up (I hope) so what about the rest of it? that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside Europe I suppose the contested part is the last bit..."through the colonization of a land outside Europe"? Selfstudier (talk) 14:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I found "a land outside Europe" to be a weird phrasing. Is "outside Europe" an essential part of Zionism? Could someone substantiate this? I don't clearly see that in the quotes in the refs. A few possible different wordings:

1) Establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a specific land.

2) Establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of land.

3) Establishment of a Jewish state through colonization.

I like (1) and (3). Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:22, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand the purpose behind this avoidance of Palestine, what source is this based upon when so many list as a central idea? Is there a need to collect sources here for this and reworking the "Territories considered" section? fiveby(zero) 14:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The next line is: "With the rejection of alternate proposals for a Jewish state, it eventually focused on the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine". I'm okay with "establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of Palestine" so as long as the rest of the paragraph accommodates. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

+1 "establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of Palestine". Levivich (talk) 15:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

(Heb. tsiyyonut) denotes the modern movement of the return of Jews to Erets Yisra’el (shivat tsiyyon, the return to Zion)

— Berlin, Adele, ed. (2011). "Zionism". The Oxford Dictionary of the Jewish Religion (2nd ed.).

International, political, and ideological movement dedicated to restoring Erez Israel to the Jewish people.

— Bowker, John, ed. (2000). "Zionism". The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions.

The movement that arose at the end of the nineteenth century with the aim of establishing a homeland for Jews in Palestine, as it then was.

— Jacobs, Louis, ed. (1999). "Zionism". A Concise Companion to the Jewish Religion. Oxford University Press.

(ec, re Bitspectator)Got a source for confusing the reader with such a departure from the norm. Territorialism is often discussed alongside Zionism, and certainly after 1903 in opposition to Zionism. fiveby(zero) 15:24, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not against "of Palestine". Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Penslar p 37 has "In 1890, a young Viennese Jewish activist named Nathan Birnbaum coined both the word “Zionism,” by which he meant a Palestine-centered Jewish nationalism, and the term "political Zionism," which meant a public political campaign on behalf of the attainment of Zionist goals.38 Theodor Herzl had never heard of either term when he underwent a conversion to Jewish nationalism in the spring of 1895..." Selfstudier (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I lean "of Palestine" now. I'm just thinking of the phrasing of the next lines. Should contain [initially contemplating other locations] and [Palestine corresponds to the Biblical Land of Israel]? Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Not in the first sentence. I'm not sure that the "some briefly considered other places" is even worthy of including in the lead at all (it's worth including in the body of course), it seems like trivia to me in the context of an overview of Zionism. Levivich (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history.

This is a pretty cozy first sentence to me. I would change the first "and" to "that" though. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to it, in the sense that I don't think it's misleading or anything, but I would shorten the first sentence and let the rest of the first paragraph do some of the work:

Zionism is an ethnic nationalist movement for the establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, the ancient Jewish homeland in Palestine. Emerging in Europe in the late 19th century and led by the World Zionist Organization, Zionists launched a program of colonization of Palestine that culminated in the establishment of the state of Israel following the 1948 Palestine war. Zionism continues to be the official state ideology of Israel, although its platform has been redefined several times since inception.

Something like that is what I'd write for first paragraph. (Sorry to stray beyond 1st sentence, but it's hard to divorce the 1st sentence from the rest of the 1st paragraph.) Levivich (talk) 17:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I dislike this for putting "Land of Israel" and "ancient Jewish homeland" before "Palestine". I think the Zionist (or even Jewish) understanding of the territory should come after the most impartial description of what the territory is ("the Levant" would also be okay). Is your point that "Land of Israel"/"ancient Jewish homeland" is not exactly synonymous with "Palestine"?

I also find it objectionable that Wikivoice definitively describes "the ancient Jewish homeland" as "in Palestine". Previously it just acknowledged a correspondence between "Palestine" and "Land of Israel", I think for obvious NPOV reasons. Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:48, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Shlomo has a lot to say about "Land of Israel" and post 48, it is an anachronism (Israel is not equal to Land of Israel). At the very least we need to set the usage in its time period (initially sought or something like that and then dispense with it, maybe should be some sort of efn). Selfstudier (talk) 18:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to saying, somewhere in the lead, that Israel has expanded its borders beyond the borders of the Land of Israel. I'm not sure if that should be in the first paragraph or elsewhere in the lead. But I don't think that fact contradicts that Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state in the place where the historic Land of Israel was located. Levivich (talk) 18:45, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Over at History of Zionism, LoI is not directly mentioned in the lead, we have instead "At the core of the Zionist ideology was the traditional aspiration for a Jewish national home through the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty in Palestine" with the last mouthful wikilinked to History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel. Selfstudier (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think "Land of Israel" or "ancient Jewish homeland" is the Zionist/Jewish understanding, that's everybody's understanding. Like, nobody disputes that Jews originated in the Levant, or that they call that place "the Land of Israel." Judaism didn't come from Africa or Antarctica or something, everybody knows where it came from. And I think whether one term for the place ("Land of Israel") or another ("Palestine") is first in the sentence, is a petty consideration.

I would say this: "the Land of Israel was in Palestine" is not a sentence that, in my view, any reasonable person would ever question. Only die-hard partisans would be like, "You can't call it that! It's [Israel/Palestine] only!!" IMO we get really tripped up on this, what I'd call silliness, across many articles.

"ancient Jewish homeland" might be a little on the nose, in that it may imply a historic right to the land, which is of course a hotly contested issue.

That said, I'd be fine with all sorts of variations, like: in Palestine, where Judaism originated, and which Jews called the Land of Israel or in the Land of Israel (modern Palestine) or in the place where Judaism originated or in the birthplace of Judaism, etc. etc. Levivich (talk) 18:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think "Land of Israel" or "ancient Jewish homeland" is the Zionist/Jewish understanding, that's everybody's understanding. Like, nobody disputes that Jews originated in the Levant, or that they call that place "the Land of Israel."

It's no more disputed that Palestinians originate from the Levant... Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:29, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

100% agree, and I'd say the same exact thing about people who say "It's not called 'Palestine'!" Levivich (talk) 18:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

But Land of Israel has never been a common English name for the region. Thats why it shouldnt be used in place of Palestine in an English language encyclopedia article. nableezy - 21:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

"Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history."? Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

How about we hold up for a bit and wait for some oppositional buy-in? Selfstudier (talk) 18:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure. Bitspectator ⛩️ 18:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense :-) Levivich (talk) 18:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

"Corresponding to" strikes me as wordy. What's wrong with, "the Land of Israel, in modern-day Palestine"?

"of central importance" is vague, why not just say what that central importance was: where Judaism originated, something like "birthplace of Judaism"?

Again, I don't really oppose your language, I'm just saying I think we can be clearer and more direct. My opposition is to dancing around basic facts in order to satisfy extreme partisans on either side (and I don't mean you or anybody else here, I mean those who deny that Israel is in Palestine, or that this region is the origin of both Jews and Palestinians). Levivich (talk) 18:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

What additional information does "Land of Israel" add? I think if anything it just confuses since it doesnt have well defined borders. DMH223344 (talk) 18:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It explains why Zionists wanted to form a Jewish state in Palestine, and not somewhere else. I'd be fine with "a Jewish state in Palestine, where Judaism originated," or "a Jewish state in the Land of Israel in Palestine," or "a Jewish state in the Land of Israel (in modern Palestine)" or "a Jewish state in the Land of Israel, where Judaism originated, then known as Palestine." Levivich (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

But i dont think its widely accepted that that's why Palestine was chosen, no? It also encourages misunderstanding it as a religiously motivated movement, which it was certainly not, with many traditionalist authorities opposing collective settlement in Palestine. DMH223344 (talk) 18:55, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it's definitely widely accepted. Even undisputed. Why would they have sent people to Palestine if not because that's where the Land of Israel was? I mean, what is the alternative explanation for why Palestine was the destination? I don't think it's complicated or controversial to say that Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine because that's where Judaism comes from. Levivich (talk) 19:20, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok I think there's something subtle here which is the distinction between "Judaism" and "the Jewish people". I agree one of the motivations of Zionism choosing palestine was they claimed a historic title to the land, but the movement was not motivated by religion (although that would have of course played a factor). DMH223344 (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

See the paragraph in Shimoni talking about the zionist organization's claim to palestine specifically: https://archive.org/details/zionistideology0000shim/page/353/mode/1up?view=theater

Which includes a justification based on the utility to western powers DMH223344 (talk) 19:28, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

All that is to say that I think we should be careful to make it very clear that zionism developed as a secular movement, not one driven by religion or tradition. As many authors emphasize, it was a radical break from tradition. DMH223344 (talk) 19:30, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Levivich in this case. "ancient homeland" comes verbatim out of several BESTSOURCES. I agree that it's an important motivation and that it's hard to mount a reasonable argument to question the fact that Zionism went to Palestine because that's where the Land of Israel is in Judaism. I like Bitspectator's frame, "Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history."? Andre🚐 20:38, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any issues with "Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history." DMH223344 (talk) 20:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems like this formulation has consensus? Levivich (talk) 21:51, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

"Judaism originated in Palestine" is a historical statement, not a religious one. Just like "Islam originated in Mecca" or "Christianity originated near Jerusalem". To me, saying that, or saying that Zionism wanted to establish a Jewish state in Palestine because that's where Judaism originated, does not say to me that it was religiously motivated. But in any event, I think distinguishing Political Zionism from Religious Zionism, and the fact that the former was secular, and that the former became the mainstream, is worth saying somewhere in the lead. Levivich (talk) 19:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree it is a historical statement, I just dont think an emphasis on "judaism" (rather than the "jewish people") is warranted here. Im pretty confident most sources focus on the origins of the people, not the religion in this context.

I agree about mentioning the distinction. The body is currently lacking a real discussion of this distinction or of the nature of religious zionism as a melding of religious conservatism and secular nationalism following the efforts of kook. DMH223344 (talk) 19:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd be fine with not mentioning the Judaism/Jewish people thing explicitly. That's why I'd be fine with something like "a Jewish state in the Land of Israel in Palestine" or "a Jewish state in the Land of Israel (in modern Palestine)". You asked what does "Land of Israel" add; well, that's what it adds: in Palestine because that's where the Land of Israel was. We can leave it up to the reader to click on the link (or read the body of this article) and learn about the nuances of what and where the Land of Israel was, exactly, and what it means for Judaism and for the "Jewish people" (whoever they are, as we know, a complicated question in itself). (I think saying that the Land of Israel was the origin of the Jewish people is problematic given research about the disapora and the whole "who exactly are the Jewish people?" question). I think the lead needn't go into any detail further than "in Palestine because that's where the Land of Israel was," or alternatively, "in the Land of Israel, which is in Palestine", or something like that. Levivich (talk) 20:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that 'Judaism' originated in Palestine, anymore than I concur with the view that Christianity originated near Jerusalem. For in both cases the question is what Judaism/what Christianity? Like most statements that are eminently reasonable for being commonsensical, they begin to crumble if you analyse the terms that constitute them. Sorry for being a spoilsport.Nishidani (talk) 20:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I could elaborate, but I see the article Origins of Judaism does indeed give some of the reasoning behind my elliptical obiter dictum. The formation of Judaism, as we understand it today, was a very long historical process, which took a decisive inchoate turn in Babylon during the exile, was distilled by Ezra and Nehemiah on their return to Judea, and achieved something like a defining value with the rabbinical Judaism of the Mishnah, meaning a span of several centuries extending over the work of Jewish religious figures, not only in Palestine (the Palestinian Talmud) but also throughout the 'diaspora'. It was a product ante litteram of the galut as much as it was the outcome of Jewish religious thought and practice in Palestine itself in the formative nationalist periods. The essential thing about all this is the symbolic order constituted by the Biblical narratives (which were themselves not a product just of 'Palestinian' Jews) with its figuring of that region as the core of Yahweh's promised land and the site where the people coalesced into Israelites. This obvious point is often ignored in even excellent RS. As always, our problem in assessing RS is to see what parts of them conserve standard narratives, and what part show genuine advances in our historical understanding (something I think ignored above in these endless threads over what to pick from an ever expanding source base - also perhaps because there are no wiki guidelines to tell us how to undertake those assessments, other than articles and books which review the ongoing works in the field).Nishidani (talk) 21:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the discussion could be more rigorous if we look at all the bestsource quotes rather than simply off-the-cuff opining on the arcane particulars. Most of them talk about Judaism and also the secularization. Stanislawski, as was pointed out, contrasts this view, but in doing so also fleshes it out. Penslar: Zionism’s goal was to create a Jewish homeland in a territory with which Jewish civilization was intimately linked: the ancient Land of Israel. Zion is a biblical word that refers to a hill in Jerusalem and, by extension, to the city of Jerusalem and thence to the entirety of the ancient Land of Israel. Edelheit: Zionism is, at its root, a secular nationalist movement framed as a modern revolution against elements of the Jewish past, from its inception Zionism also harked back to a two-millennia! tradition of hope for the restoration of Jewry to its ancestral homeland. Therefore, examining the Jewish understanding of concepts of land, statehood, nationalism, and national sovereignty will, therefore, provide key data for understanding Zionism's appeal and its meaning. ... First, the Jewish religious tradition does not distinguish clearly between religious, national, racial, or ethnic identities. Second, nonetheless, a strong sense of bondedness exists throughout the Jewish tradition and is expressed in terms of peoplehood or, in modern terminology, as a concept of nationality. Third, that from the very beginning this sense of peoplehood was identified with the Land of Israel, or (to use the traditional Jewish term) Eretz Israel. The fact that Eretz Israel was not seen as just a homeland, but also as a land of destiny, was intimately related to this sense of peoplehood and meant that Eretz Israel was always seen as central to Jewish life, in theory if not in practice. Finally, throughout the long years of exile Jews always hoped for some form of redemption and return to their ancestral homeland, with a small settlement existing almost continuously. Forriol: Zionism as a political movement is an ethnic and organic nationalism. One has to start from the idea contrary to what Jewish nationalism maintains, the nation is a relatively recent historical construct, not having existed since biblical times. But the rabbinic vision of their religion reinforced their ethnic consciousness. Persecution in Europe due to anti-Semitism and the longing for Zion (the belief in a homeland to which they were destined to return when their exile ended), both of which were religious in nature, facilitated the development of Zionism. This ideology emerged in the late 19th century in a context of nationalist effervescence in Europe, influenced by it, and because its promoters instrumentalised the biblical paradigm of 'the promised land - the chosen people' as a mobilising slogan for the Jewish community abroad Andre🚐 21:26, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

simply off-the-cuff opining on the arcane particulars

Thanks for the sneer contextually thrown my way but, aside from the fact that there is nothing off-the-cuff there - it's in the scholarship, der Teufel steckt im Detail (the devil is in the details) or more aptly, we can get virtually any number of mutually conflicting formulations from dozens of good solid RS, and use them to whatever purpose we like. To allude once more to that gentleman I mentioned above:'The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose'. The particulars I mentioned are not 'arcane' - they pertain to the essence of any discussion or use of the term Judaism. The point I hinted at is that most good scholarly books of this kind of genre (and I have in mind several kinds of nations in descriptive works) hover between recycled ideas and fresh thinking. Several of the phrases above are questionable ('from its inception'; 'the Jewish religious tradition does not distinguish clearly between religious, national, racial, or ethnic identities'; (A) 'Eretz Israel was always seen as central to Jewish life; 'Persecution in Europe due to anti-Semitism and the longing for Zion' (that unfortunate phrasing grammatically, by the way, suggests that (b) 'longing for Zion' was due to persecution in Europe, whereas 'longing for Zion' in numerous RS is said to be a bilmillennial part of Jewish identity, (compare a and b) etc.) Of course, other things there are unobjectionable. Nishidani (talk) 21:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Not intended as a sneer, but do you want to cite a source for your opinions? So far in this thread I can't see what source you are citing. Andre🚐 21:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

You often ask me whether I have a source for 'opinions' you contest. I write things like the above with the assumption that editors here do know their stuff, namely on things like the history of early Judaism. If one is not familiar with that scholarship, then it's not my job to mentor, but editors to read broadly in that topic area as well. Nothing I said was in the least controversial, or unfamiliar to anyone who studies that past.Nishidani (talk) 21:57, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Your job is to cite sources for WP:WEIGHT and per WP:V and WP:RS Andre🚐 22:03, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Instead of rushing to reply, could you every now and then withhold snippy immediate reactions (4 minutes above) and reflect a little about what your interlocutors are saying? It is again none of your business to suggest paternalistically you know what my job is, for my editing history has established that. This is a talk page, not an article where editors must contribute sources with WP:Due and WP:RS in mind. If you were surprised to see my reply to Levivich clarifying an implicit ambiguity in associating the birth of Judaism within just one territory, that means you were not familiar with the history of Judaism. If you ask me for sources when I made a second comment, it means you want me to refer you to the immediately accessible results of any google search, which would, if you had downloaded a dozen papers fromn Zeitlin and Neusner onwards, underwritten that generalization. Not broadening one's background knowledge leads to far too much ephemeral backchat. Reply if you like, but methodological cautions and familiarity with a culture are a lesson all should take on board. And consensus is better secured if we adopt the principle that we should spend more time in the study than on wikipedia as a talkback venue if articles are eventually to be written with encyclopedic stability and precision. Finis Nishidani (talk) 07:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Talk pages indeed expect a constructive approach to editing pages, some amount of generalization permitted, but if you're contradicting stuff from the most reliable sources, one would expect you are going to bring an equally reliable source (which, as you know, is not the Origins of Judaism). Uncharitable to suggest I don't understand, just focus on the fact that you don't agree. I'm well aware of Judaism's relationship to Babylon, Persia, and Egypt; still, you need to cite sources, not just say stuff. I quoted several of the BESTSOURCES, and you are still just stating stuff without a link in sight. You need evidence for claims. Yes, the exile was critical to the development of Judaism, but most Jewish people trace their culture and religion to the Second Temple period, not the rabbinic period. Andre🚐 07:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not contradicting reliable sources. And I am not making 'claims'. It appears to you to be a claim simply because you seem to be unfamiliar with the obvious, which normally on wikipedia does not require RS documentation. You are referring to RS on Zionism as reliable on 'Judaism', I'm referring to works on the history of Judaism which make the assumption about 'Judaism' in the former look superficial. Since you won't follow my advice, or don't appear to grasp my point by a careful reading, I'll give you a leg-up. Read Steve Mason's 'Jews, Judaeans, Judaizing, Judaism: Problems of Categorization in Ancient History,' August 2007 Journal for the Study of Judaism, vol. 38, issue 4-5 pp.457-512 and then Daniel Boyarin's Judaism: The Genealogy of a Modern Notion, Rutgers University Press 2018 ISBN 978-0-813-57161-4. Please don't come back on this. It would take several hours of concentrated study to get through just those two excellent references, but the time spent would be in your worthwhile.Nishidani (talk) 09:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this formulation makes some basic errors, Zionism's goal was to establish a Jewish state. Zionists later coalesced on creating that Jewish state in Palestine. nableezy - 21:40, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

But by that argument, "outside of Europe" is also not accurate. Zionism wanted a Jewish state and considered alternatives, like Uganda. But is there a bestsource that they needed to be "outside of Europe"? During the phase where they would have taken anything, why not Europe? Also, what is the source, because the sources above clearly attribute that goal to Zionism, not Zionists, (see above) Andre🚐 21:46, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

What are the dates you'd put on that? What's the date that Zionism began or that Zionism set a goal of establishing a Jewish state (if those two dates are different), and what's the date that it coalesced around Palestine? Levivich (talk) 21:50, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

We can of course put a date on both. Herzl's Jewish state in Palestine was proposed in February 1896, and the Basel Program's formal acceptance of Palestine dates to late August 1897. The Uganda 'alternative' was not a Zionist proposal, but one made by an outsider, Joseph Chamberlain, 4 years later. None of the vaunted 'alternatives' that from time to time arose -Angola, Argentina, Brasil, Canada, Cuba, Cyrenaica, El Arish, Kenya, Kimberley, Manchuria, Madagasgar, Mesopotamia, Nevada, Paraguay, Siberia inflected seriously the early decision to go for Palestine. Any other alternative created deep rifts within Zionism, esp among the majority Eastern Jews. The irony of the Uganda plan is that the British colonialists already established there were interviewed and voiced strenuous opposition which was taken into account for its political risks, something avoided later with the Balfour Declaration, which never considered indigenous Palestinian opinion or opposition. They were Arabs. Nishidani (talk) 08:56, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to put a date on that, and I'm not happy about presenting the history as if it was "anywhere" first and "only Palestine" later. It wasn't as simple as that. Palestine was the emotional favorite from the beginning, but some saw it as unavailable or unsuitable for some other reason. Some Zionists wanted to hold out for Palestine, others were prepared to consider anywhere that was available. The latter stream became fringe when the ITO split off and faded. I would drop "outside Europe" even though it is true, because the answer to "why not Europe?" is that nobody ever suggested a location in Europe that was available and suitable. Zero^talk 06:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree it was the favored destination, but my understanding is that Zionism at its core was Jewish nationalism and the goal to establish a Jewish state. The where mattered, and while Palestine was the emotional favorite the initial goal was much less dependent on the where than on the what (the what being a Jewish state). nableezy - 16:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "Palestine" versus "Eretz Israel", I think we should follow the terminology used by the Zionists themselves. This was overwhelmingly "Palestine" until well into the mandate period. Without evidence, I suspect this reflects the secular nature of the project. Zero^talk 06:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Palestine is indisputably the most common name used by Zionists and many others for the region in the premodern period, Eretz Yisrael is more of a concept than a geographic place name. However, the most common name for the place in the premodern period, largely due to Christian usage, was (ngram) "Holy Land" (or even more common, but sometimes not used geographically, "Promised Land") One exception would be Zvi Hirsch Kalischer who refers to the area as both "Eretz Yisrael" and "Zion." Also, it's worth noting that in the pre-modern period, Israel generally referred to the people, ie the Children of Israel, or as Pinsker says in Auto-Emancipation the "people of Israel." Personally I think we should mostly consider how commonly sources in the modern-day describe things, with an eye to clarification and everyday usage. Andre🚐 06:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

If I am following the above, we more or less agree "a land outside Europe" can go

"...that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of Palestine, a region corresponding to (known as?) the Land of Israel in Judaism, [and of central importance in Jewish history.]"

and we are currently at something like the above? Or not? Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

That's where I'm at 🙂 Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:27, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

+1. I like your tweaks, too, "known as" and I think the "importance" bit is unnecessary if Land of Israel is linked--that already communicates importance, but I'm good with it either way. One other tweak I'd suggest: "pursued" instead of "aimed for." Levivich (talk) 13:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm perplexed since this is both unpolemic, innocuous and historically accurate, and I don't see any cogency in taking an exception to what is a very standard phrase in accounts of Zionism. This is a palmary example of spending a lot of chat to rid text of a phrase which lacks any reason to be expunged. Most recently, in a gloss the translation of the fundamental document of early Zionism, we have

• Judenstaat offers a plan to make a Jewish Palestine into an outpost of European “civilization” amid the “barbarism” of the orient, and recognizes that such a colony would remain dependent on Europe to guarantee its security. Herzl argues that Europeans should held the Zionists achieve their goals because a Jewish state outside Europe was a solution to the Jewish problem inside Europe, but would also function as a pan-European colony. Michael J.Reimer, The First Zionist Congress:An Annotated Translation of the Proceedings, State University of New York Press 2019 ISBN 978-1-438-47314-7 p.29
• 'His concern was with the anti-Semitism of which Jews were victims. Its solution was the establishment of a state outside Europe's boundaries.' Milton Viorst, Zionism: The Birth and Transformation of an Ideal, St. Martin's Publishing Group 2016 i978-1-466-89032-9 p.30
• 'Herzl used the case of Dreyfus to stress that European nationalism was steeped in racism against Jews, and as such, argued for the need for a national Jewish state outside Europe.’ Amneh Badran, Zionist Israel and Apartheid South Africa:Civil Society and Peace Building in Ethnic-national States, Taylor & Francis 2009 ISBN 978-1-1352-7582-2 p.71
• ‘certain anti-Semitic movements and governments applied the very same concept to justify a sympathetic handling of Zionism, insofar as the project of setting up a Jewish state outside Europe would solve the local ‘Jewish Question’ through a voluntary withdrawal of all these undesirable “aliens.” Victor Karady, The Jews of Europe in the Modern Era: A Socio-Historical Outline, Central European University Press 2004 ISBN 978-9-639-24152-7 p.337
• 'Zionism can thus be defined as an attempt to solve the Jewish question’ (a term used preominently by Theodor Herzl and other Zionist leaders) not through assimilation but through the creation of a Jewish state outside Europe. Oliver Zimmer, Nationalism in Europe, 1890-1940, Palgrave Macmillan 2003 ISBN 978-1-403-94388-0 p.74
• 'Even before the appearance of definitive proof that emancipation was reversible, however, a sober minority among the "modernists" confronted the logic of ethnic nationalism and set out on the sole possible path to survival in the modern world: the creation of a Jewish nation-state outside Europe Benjamin Nathans, Review: A People Apart: The Jews in Europe, 1789-1939 by David Vital, The Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 96, No. 2 Spring 2006, pp. 288-295 p.289

That 'outside Europe' is a scholarly commonplace, but very important because it links not only to the specific European antisemitism that generated in part a Zionist consensus, but also to wider themes in Zionism: the repudiation of Europe, yet the need for tutelary arrangements with the Great powers, and the witting self-image of the projected state as a forward frontierpost of European civilization against Asiatic barbarism. Nishidani (talk) 14:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it's accurate. But those paragraphs are mostly talking about anti-Semitism in Europe. It makes sense to mention that the Zionist designs were for outside Europe in that context. I previously encouraged mentioning anti-Semitism in the first paragraph. The question is whether to use "outside Europe" in the first sentence of an article describing Zionism. I don't see that (or similar) in the source survey introductions. Bitspectator ⛩️ 14:25, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

"known as" and "corresponding to" seem dont seem accurate enough, considering some definitions include land up to the litani river (and also cyprus). DMH223344 (talk) 16:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

How would you phrase it? Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I personally would not in the opening. Later when discussing why Palestine was chosen would be a place to include due to the historical connections between Judaism and the region of Palestine, roughly corresponding with the area referred to by the traditional Jewish name of Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael in Hebrew). nableezy - 16:32, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I would just say "Palestine" like so many sources do, and like the early zionists did DMH223344 (talk) 16:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

So just move it to Line 2 as it is now? Selfstudier (talk) 16:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Nableezy used "roughly" above, which I think should be included. And I agree that presenting this info in the second sentence as the lead currently does is the right way to do it. Zionism was a modern secular movement, and our first sentence should be very clear, and not imply in any way that it was motivated by religion. DMH223344 (talk) 16:53, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Religious Zionism was a minority position then? Selfstudier (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Also, I'm less familiar with the literature on religious zionism, but I think we can also say that religious zionism is an attempt to bridge secular nationalism with religious conservatism. Religious zionism did not necessarily oppose it's secular counterpart. DMH223344 (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Something like:

Zionism is an ethno-nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside Europe. By the turn of the century, the mainstream Zionist movement was focused on the establishment of a Jewish state specifically in Palestine. Zionism developed as a secular movement and was in many ways a rejection of Jewish tradition; the movement's selection of Palestine, a region corresponding to the Land of Israel in Judaism, and of central importance in Jewish history, was made on the basis of practical and strategic considerations.

DMH223344 (talk) 17:04, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I have to say I am with those that are not keen on the "outside Europe" phrasing. Mainly because it sounds a bit odd out of context and the putative best sources don't tackle it like that, I prefer just saying Palestine in line 1. I think they settled on Palestine before the turn of the century, right? 1896/7 per Nishidani. I would like to settle line 1 before moving on to Line 2/3 altho they are obviously connected. Selfstudier (talk) 17:23, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Not keen either, but i think enough objection from Nishidani and nableezy and i think DMH223344 for more work towards a real consensus.

• Alroey, Gur (2011). ""Zionism without Zion"? Territorialist Ideology and the Zionist Movement, 1882–1956". Jewish Social Studies. 18 (1). Indiana University Press: 1–32. doi:10.2979/jewisocistud.18.1.1. JSTOR 10.2979/jewisocistud.18.1.1. (wplibrary)
• and his book Alroey, Gur (2016). Zionism without Zion : the Jewish Territorial Organization and its conflict with the Zionist Organization. Wayne State University Press. OCLC 921867796. (wplibrary)
• maybe Rovner, Adam (2014). In the shadow of Zion : promised lands before Israel. NYU Press. OCLC 896188426.

Don't know if they feel that needs done now or can be deferred, or just worked on within the body? fiveby(zero) 18:40, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Worked on in the body opens up to more sources and it might throw up the answer we are looking for. Jewish Territorial Organization has in its lead "first arose in 1903 in response to the British Uganda Scheme, but only institutionalized in 1905. Its main goal was to find an alternative territory to that of Palestine, which was preferred by the Zionist movement, for the creation of a Jewish homeland." Selfstudier (talk) 18:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Just as a reminder, what the lead "used to say":-

"Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת Tsiyyonut [tsijoˈnut] after Zion) is a nationalist movement that emerged in the 19th century to espouse support for the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition." Selfstudier (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

And fwiw, Britannica updated to "Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)." Selfstudier (talk) 18:13, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

You removed cultural after I had replied, I thought we already resolved that above and the refs (both best source authors) are to suit. Selfstudier (talk) 18:11, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

ah yeah sorry about that, im fine with it's inclusion, i just think it sounds kind of silly. DMH223344 (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It's linked to ethnic nationalism for the curious (fwiw, WP articles on the various branches are not that great, see Cultural nationalism "It is contrasted with "political" nationalism, which refers to specific movements for national self-determination through the establishment of a nation-state." Hum.). Selfstudier (talk) 18:36, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with keeping "cultural" and removing "outside Europe." I feel like we're making good progress. Andre🚐 04:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Took a swag at implementing the latest Selfstudier-Bitspectator special deluxe edition [2] Andre🚐 04:42, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted, there have been several objections to Land of Israel and your phrasing on establishing a state and a homeland makes close to no sense. nableezy - 10:37, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

[refactored to below section by Andre🚐 21:57, 4 October 2024 (UTC)]

Again, an edit summary WP:SYNTH (ergo removal) is not enough. My practice is to show on the talk page what the synth you claim is there consists of. Inferences from sources, ergo WP:OR etc? Other editors simply do not know unless you spend some time explaining what is wrong with the text. Bulleted points are useful to this end. So please clarify.Nishidani (talk) 14:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

"aimed for the creation of a Jewish state and establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people" is confusing, which is it? Or perhaps one could say something like "...a Jewish state by way of establishing a homeland..."? Selfstudier (talk) 09:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

We are back to trying to get agreement on Line 1, there appear to be three issues on which consensus is required, a) state or homeland and b) outside Europe or Palestine and c) Linking to the second sentence. For me, it's a) state (that's what was really wanted) and b ) Palestine (going by the dates above, that's what the mainstream wanted) and c) Sentence should stand on its own with no link to second sentence. Selfstudier (talk) 13:36, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If dates are a consideration for (b) then 1903 is probably better to call out: from Alroey's paper ..the resolutions of the Seventh Congress to reject the British proposal and to prevent discussion of similar proposals in the future was a formative event in the history of the Zionist movement, the territorialist movement, and the Jewish people in general. But ITO lived on till Balfour, and territorialism reemerged in the '30s and '40s Frayland-lige. fiveby(zero) 14:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

"Home" is neutral (and incidentally matches both the Basel Program and the Balfour Declaration). "Homeland" carries the connotation of "native land" (look at a dictionary), so it is not neutral. Regarding Self's (a)-(c), there is a third alternative for (b) namely to not mention a destination at all. The destination issue can be better described in several sentences later than trying to nail it in a few words. Zero^talk 14:59, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree 'homeland' is prejudicial, and 'home' better, though I'm comfortable with 'state' because Herzl and his contemporaries were. re (b) saying 'outside Europe' is not specifying any 'destination', but rather defining it for what it was, i.e., an 'exit strategy' away from Europe where Jews could not exercise an imitation of the nationalisms that were consolidating themselves, and also a flight from, and putative cure for, antisemitism. Re Fiveby's note, I think being tied up by alluding to the Uganda/territorialism variants is unnecessary: as with 'cultural nationalism', which got some late wind from Chaim Gans' strange book (and reflects a very minority tradition associated with Ahad and the negligible if honourable Brit Shalom) Uganda was raised and dismissed virtually in one year, and was an English proposal, quickly trashed, while territorialism, notwithstanding its regional importance sometime later, was almost totally ignored over a century of Zionist historiography (per Astour and Alroey).

My impression is that most wiki disputes are inordinately focused on leads because editors tend to think that's about as far as most modern readers go. Which means the actual body of the article, which should take precedence because only when the sections are done can one accurately précis them in the lead, per policy. At the moment, User:DMH223344 is the only one trying to thoroughly revisit the whole text. Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The old lead and the current one are supposedly from the same body, good trick:) And all the complaints are about the lead, so needs must. Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh i agree, many of the points raised in these discussions show fertile ground for content work, and sometimes a surprising lack of existing content. But that is a multi-day commitment of time and also involves the detestable task of, well, writing. Understand Selfstudier's "needs must" tho. fiveby(zero) 17:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

For (b), check out my comment here. Would you go with (3)? Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:21, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

personally I have 0 objection to "Jewish national home" if that is a compromise that helps. Andre🚐 23:23, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Wrong thread? Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:26, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion of "home" versus "homeland" in the first message that starts this thread by Zero above. As far as the Jewish state, I think it should mention the Jewish state as well as the idea of a Jewish national home, those 2 are related, but not identical. Andre🚐 23:28, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Shlaim in particular "The Basel Program deliberately spoke of a home rather than a state for the Jewish people, but from the Basel Congress onward the clear and consistent aim of the Zionist movement was to create a state for the Jewish people in Palestine. In his diary Herzl confided, 'At Basel I founded the Jewish State. If I said this out loud today, I would be answered by universal laughter. Perhaps in five years, and certainly in fifty, everyone will know it."

Then it would seem that "home", "homeland" and the rest was mere posturing for political effect and a disguise for the real intention, a state. One can see this in the negotiations over the Balfour Declaration, the attempt to upgrade "home" to "commonwealth", for example, see https://cojs.org/quotes_by_lord_george_nathaniel_curzon-_british_foreign_secretary-_regarding_the_establishment_of_the_palestine_mandate-_march_1920/ Selfstudier (talk) 10:00, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe that is correct analysis. The immediate reason that the Basel Program said "home" and not "state" is that they were hoping for a concession from the Sublime Porte and they knew that the least hint of wanting sovereignty would kill the possibility. Zero^talk 10:55, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether the home or homeland was posturing, which obviously would be disputed. You can characterize what Zionist organizations or leaders said or thought, and then immediately provide the counter-critique. Andre🚐 23:07, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:SYNTH in lead

I also removed several conclusions that are WP:SYNTH and failed verification which you appear to have reverted [3] [4] [5] These claims and conclusions do not appear in the sources. Can you show me how the sources support those? Andre🚐 13:46, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I can reword that to say Zionists called their efforts colonization if the wording is a problem for you, but I don’t see synth there. nableezy - 14:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

There were 3 removals that you reverted. SYNTH is making a conclusion unless explicitly stated in source. The first, Modern political Zionism, different from religious Zionism, is a movement made up of diverse political groups whose strategies and tactics have changed over time. The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine, through colonization., was not in the Alroey source at all. The 2nd, Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie primarily in their presentation and ethos, having adopted similar strategies to achieve their political goals, in particular in the use of violence and compulsory transfer to deal with the presence of the local Palestinian, non-Jewish population. has several citations, none of which contain that text. And finally, Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist., which does not appear in the sources cited, which say "colonization" and do not say anything about settler-colonial or exceptionalist, which is not at all the same thing. Andre🚐 19:39, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Since this is not really about Line 1, how about take it to its own section? Selfstudier (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

That's true. Can do. Andre🚐 21:55, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

The first two are supported by the body. I'm pretty confident the citations for the second one do in fact support that claim (although the page number for ben-ami 2007 might be wrong). If you really want, I can pull out quotes or sections. It shouldnt be necessary since this content is covered in the body of the article. DMH223344 (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Quotes or sections would be helpful. Remember, a conclusion is different from a summary. Can you explain what quotes from which sources and what parts of the body support these synthetic conclusions? Andre🚐 22:33, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

See "Claim to a Jewish demographic majority and a Jewish state in Palestine" for the first claim. See the section "Labor Zionism" for the second, also see the introduction to Shlaim's book. DMH223344 (talk) 23:12, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

In all cases those are conclusions not made by any source, but we are being asked to make, an improperly synthetic conclusion. 1. That does not contain a source explicitly making the conclusion made here, that all types of Zionism support "territorial concentration" "through colonization." 2. That section does not contain a source explicitly claiming that differences lie in presentation and ethos but all support "violence" and compulsory transfer." 3. ?. in each case, unless a specific source, or really several sources, use something with a commonly-understood meaning that is analogous to those sentences, you're drawing conclusions. Andre🚐 23:16, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Please read more carefully, it's not a problem to take more than 4 minutes to read and then write a response.

The claim is about "mainstream Zionist groups". As for the use of the term "colonization," we can discuss that. It's not controversial that the methods used by Zionism included "colonization." DMH223344 (talk) 23:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean? You have a burden of proof to show the quotes that make these conclusions. You appear to be doing WP:SYNTH, namely you're reading all the descriptions of the types of Zionism an saying "yeah they don't differ." Nowhere is it written that they all share the same tenets vis. relocation or violence. I didn't object to "colonization." But the sentence in the article says "settler-colonialism" which is not the 1:1 map to colonization. Andre🚐 23:25, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

You are confusing claims about "all types of Zionism" and "mainstream Zionist groups". DMH223344 (talk) 23:32, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Either way, there's a rebuttable demand for specific, explicit usage of these conceptual strokes, otherwise it's textbook SYNTH. See Wikipedia:Citing_sources#Text–source_integrity. Wikipedia:Don't build the Frankenstein Andre🚐 23:34, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I get Andre's point in a couple of these cases, because it isn't always possible to point to a straightforward correspondence between the claims we make and any single source text. However, it's important to remember that this is a lead, which would ordinarily summarise the body, which should carefully spell out its claims with sources. (Leads are rarely as thoroughly sourced as this one.) The work of summarising necessarily means that text won't simply reproduce source texts. I think most of these passages do a good job of summarising large quantities of source material, via the sections in the body.

However, I agree to some extent with Andre on the current final sentence of the lead: Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist. To me this is very clunky and murky, trying to concisely summarise too many heterogeneous points. Personally, I'd just delete that sentence in the lead, and make sure the points are addressed in the body. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Some Zionists past tense did indeed label their actions "colonialism". I'm not sure how that is relevant when the context is "modern Zionism" and present tense "mainstream factions":

" Modern political Zionism, different from religious Zionism, is a movement made up of diverse political groups whose strategies and tactics have changed over time. The common ideology among mainstream Zionist factions is support for territorial concentration and a Jewish demographic majority in Palestine, through colonization. "

So unless there are solid sources which say that the common ideology among mainstream Zionists today is "colonialism", then this claim does seem to be rather blatant SYNTH.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 23:08, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Maybe the term "modern" confuses more than helps here. To be clear, its meaning here is not the same as "contemporary" DMH223344 (talk) 23:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think this text is fine. To me, it's clear "modern" in this context means the period in which there has been a movement named Zionism, but I know lots of people take "modern" to mean "nowdays" so it wouldn't hurt to find a way to be slightly clearer. Otherwise, I think there is enough in the body to support "colonization". BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:50, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I didn't object to "colonization," but "settler-colonialism" and "exceptionalism" not necessarily being rejected by proponents of Zionism? Colonization is not the same thing as settler-colonialism, and that's very much contested characterization, one that is agreed by left-wing critics of Zionism, but not by proponents at all - nor does a source say this conclusion that I have found. That's weaselly worded, doesn't appear in any source per se, nor does "Differences within the mainstream Zionist groups lie primarily in their presentation and ethos, having adopted similar strategies to achieve their political goals, in particular in the use of violence. Most Labor Zionist kibbutzniks, which while not what it once was, was once a very mainstream branch of Zionism historically, would probably disagree with the strategies or the use of violence used by Political/Revisionist, i.e. more right-wing Zionism. But more importantly, which source actually makes that conclusion? Andre🚐 20:39, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to crosspost this thread to WP:NORN, since judging by current participation, there isn't a consensus whether this is SYNTH, and maybe an RFC would be good too after that, if that doesn't help. Andre🚐 23:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

and, crickets... Andre🚐 22:36, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Just waiting for the RFC. Selfstudier (talk) 09:55, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Some bibliographic work

I'd like to go through all the refs and notes in an attempt to standardize and clean up: full cites, find page numbers, etc. I can see there's been a lot of effort here towards a nice clean bibliography, but more could be done. Any preferences as to how to the mix of sfn and ref and notes which run 1-5 and a-t? Also like to standardize the cite template entries so the all look the same and have appropriate links where available. For instance place of publication for everything or nothing, which identifiers of ISBN, OCLC, DOI, ISSN, JSTOR, capitalization style in titles, etc. Links to archived versions for web cites or no or both? I hate Google Book and will remove all those URL's unless somebody says different.

There are some citations i would like to remove or tag in passing while doing this, but i think better to refrain right now? I will probably be guessing at the editor's intention for page numbers some so might end up adding some page needed tags. fiveby(zero) 17:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking this on. I don't know where DMH223344 is with their rewrite/merger, but if DMH is planning to replace some of the current content with new content, it may not be worth gnoming the existing refs for content that's about to be replaced. IMO "notes" should be limited to explanatory notes not refs. I find Google URLs to be helpful because of the free previews; I don't think she should be removed unless they're replaced with something more helpful (like free versions of the source, if available). My personal pref is to exclude archive links except for dead URLs (there's a discussion at the pump or somewhere about this). I find place of publication to be useless and outdated; we have ISBNs now and we don't have to worry about two publishers with the same name in two locations like in the olden days. But if you're doing the gnoming work I'd defer to your decisions on these preference issues (except please leave the Google URLs for the free previews if there's nothing better to link to). Levivich (talk) 03:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I will pick up the merging next month. DMH223344 (talk) 04:05, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Unless anyone objects i'm also going to do this, if all the footnote does is directly quote a source move it to {{sfn}} with a postscript parameter. If there is explanatory text added by an editor (such as 'fn 1') leave it in an {{efn}}. fiveby(zero) 20:20, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Anyone have an idea of what is going on with #9? Wouldn't think there is a need for three reference for Palestine part of Ottoman empire at the end of the 19th century. Cohen is Russian emigration, Gevin is Herzl, and i only have an epub for Pappe so no page#'s. Probably got misplaced somehow but can't figure out what the three have in common. Also, said i wasn't going to remove any refs but have already started [6][7]. fiveby(zero) 03:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I support your work Andre🚐 03:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The lead?

I feel like the lede of the article, before major edit warring on both sides due to the war, did its job of being fair, neutral, accurate and balanced. LivinAWestLife (talk) 00:41, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're right, the current lead emerged not only due to the war but due to edit warring of a contested phrasing that never reached clear consensus. This is why the article hasn't been stable for the last couple of months but those who pushed for the changed controversial edits now seem to label their changes as a consensus. ABHammad (talk) 08:14, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

These matters are already being discussed above, another section is not necessary. Selfstudier (talk) 08:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think you're 100% right. There are big problems in the lead. Parts of it rely on overtly biased sources and falsely represents their claims. That should be completely unacceptable but some people seem to want it to stand.

Andre, CoreTheApple, and I have been calling for a POV tag to be added to the article.

@Li 12345 and @ABHammad, what do you think about two ideas:

1) Should we add a POV bias tag until these issues are resolved?

2) Should do a re-write of the lead based on the best sources which are being defined as recent books, about Zionism, by subject matter experts, and published by academic presses.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the observations folks have made and have said similar things above. I'm not sure if the discussion has stalled out. There was a pretty robust discussion about Line 1 and I thought we were making good progress. I also posted a separate section about the perception of SYNTH and would appreciate others' thoughts since it was a 2-person convo. Andre🚐 19:28, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Agree with both 1 and 2 ABHammad (talk) 11:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on what ?

Specialized reliable sources are what determine NPOV, i find the current lead neutral and balanced as per the reliable sources. Stephan rostie (talk) 11:01, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

There is currently an ongoing process, which I support, to come up with a list of the best sources.

I want to see if we can come to agreement that after this process is done, we will do a re-write of the lead to make sure that the lead relies primarily on these sources.

This will include any big changes made to the article in the past few months, even if they currently are labeled as having "consensus".

Does everyone support this idea?

Edit -- Instead of a full rewrite, it might make more sense to just do a review and make sure that everything stated in the lead is supported by the best sources.

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

This was already in process before you..ah..returned. This is another unnecessary section. Do feel free to participate in any of the ongoing discussions. Selfstudier (talk) 18:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

In one other section we are discussing best sources. In another section were are discussing POV tag which I and others feel needs to be in place until some issues in the lead are resolved.

But I'm not sure that there is any actual agreement that after we come up with a list of best sources the lead will be rewritten based on the best sources including some sections being labeled as having existing "consensus".

Are you saying that we already have agreement that this rewrite will happen, and I just missed it?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:26, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't a crystal ball, there are ongoing discussions and what will be will be. One should not attempt to prejudge the outcome. Also many, if not all, of the issues you have raised have already been discussed ad nauseum, check the archives. Selfstudier (talk) 18:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

For instance, there is an ongoing discussion about Line 1 of the lead (which might also impact on Line 2). If we can't make progress on that relatively simple matter, it seems difficult to imagine progress elsewhere. If you feel that objections are being ignored or that there isn't "really" a consensus about something, an RFC (or even multiple RFCs) are always possible. I find it interesting that through all of the interminable discussions that have taken place, objectors such as yourself persistently fail to take advantage of this possibility, instead resorting to repeating the complaints time after time as if that will give them greater substance (it doesn't). Selfstudier (talk) 18:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree an RFC might be helpful if there's disagreement about whether the present lead is POV or needs a rewrite. Just note that an RFC will probably further stall progress rather than helping it, but it can be useful if we're at an impasse. Andre🚐 19:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I think we absolutely need a POV tag.

When an article has been cited by not one but several news sources as antisemitic (See This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations above) and there is fervent disagreement on it, it would be wrong to NOT tag a particularly controversial rendition as POV unless and until we can agree on a neutral POV.

To NOT put a POV tag on it suggests that there is strong wikipedia consensus on an extremely controversial (and many have said, offensive) point of view. Frankly, it makes wikipedia look bad. GreekParadise (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It's of course not an antisemitic article. No one here is even making that charge. DMH223344 (talk) 18:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

You say it's "of course not an antisemitic article." But when multiple respected media sources say it is, we have to give them their point of view too. You can't write off a widely-held opinion with a wave of your hand and an "of course."

I don't believe this article as written is based on consensus. The talk page makes that perfectly clear. And I do believe it is antisemitic. But it doesn't matter what I think. I think it's best when there's sufficient consensus to keep a Wikipedia article from being widely criticized as biased and hateful.

Therefore, I think "Criticism of this Wikipedia Article" may be a relevant addition to the article, citing the many sources in the media arguing this is a biased article (and that it is antisemitic and outrageous and their reasons why), at least until a consensus can be arrived on this article or it is returned to a more neutral formulation such as existed prior to October 7, 2023.

That way we show both sides of the controversy, both (a) the views of a select group of wikipedia editors that have changed the article in the last year but failed to reach consensus and (b) those many critics on and off wikipedia that condemn this particular formulation as not only biased but also antisemitic and outrageous.GreekParadise (talk) 19:54, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, just clarifying because GreekParadise seems to address me, in case there was some doubt about my message, yes, I do think the article has NPOV balance issues, particularly in the lead, and I've explained why in other sections above. However, I do not think you need to go so far as invoking the media organizations calling the article antisemitic to see what the POV issues are in the article, and it might be tough to defend that using Wikipedia's policies and processes, so better to stake out a position that's more moderate and defensible in my view. To wit, the article unduly focuses on critique of Zionism such as that of being settler-colonialism, and it characterizes all the differing subtypes of Zionism with a broad brush, which is WP:SYNTH in this case. To balance the article we should look at the summaries of Zionism in the best sources, which we've started doing in the other sections here. I think that analysis clearly substantiates the balance issue and points a way forward to a lead rewrite or refactor and other improvements. Andre🚐 19:24, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree, Andre, that fixing the article is better than leaving it alone and putting in the criticisms. I only offer that suggestion as a temporary one until a consensus can be re-reached. That way, folks can read the many sharp criticisms of those who agree with us that the article in its current form is demonstrably biased.

For those interested in fixing the article, here's why I believe it is antisemitic as currently written.

The article implies that Zionism is entirely a new idea. While Modern Zionism dates back to the late 19th century, the 3500-year-old desire of the Jews to return to their ancestral land from before the Exodus in Egypt through the Babylonian Exile and since the Roman exile in 70 is, I believe, the longest lasting successful movement of an exiled people to return to their homeland in human history. That's why I put it in the lede that DHM removed in his second reversion (arguably. third, since he also removed Bob's POV tag)

The article fails to mention 3500 years of Jewish history and prayers and thought and writing from before the Bible was written and in millions of writings since then, from before the Hebrew Bible was written through the Torah, Prophets, Writings, the Mishna and the Gomorra (Talmud), and thousands of responsa, kabbala, and returns to the land through the present day. Every single day from 70 to the present, every religious Jew has prayed for the return to their homeland at least a dozen times a day. I'm aware of no exiled people and no religion on planet earth, with the one possible exception of the Islamic devotion to Mecca, that has mentioned its homeland and the land of its origin as often. So yes, I think excluding this unimpeachable narrative, backed by millions of unimpeachable sources, from the article is antisemitic.

The wikipedia article Zionism as it was written before Hamas invaded Israel on October 7, 2023, had a long detailed accurate and undisputed account in the Historical and religious background. I think we should at the very least return this prior consensus to the article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zionism&oldid=1177123269

The article as written today gives short shrift to the 3500-year Jewish connection to Israel. That's what makes it non-neutral and especially wrong in the context of an article on Zionism, a movement based on that Jewish legacy. That's why the formulations in this wikipedia article are mocked and criticized as obviously biased. See, e.g. https://www.jewishpress.com/news/media/social-media/war-over-wikipedias-definition-of-zionism-pits-provoked-users-against-biased-editors/2024/09/17/ which cites Brittanica for a clear neutral lede.

“Zionism, a Jewish nationalist movement with the goal of the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisrael, “the Land of Israel”). Though Zionism originated in eastern and central Europe in the latter part of the 19th century, it is in many ways a continuation of the ancient attachment of the Jews and the Jewish religion to the historical region of Palestine. According to Judaism, Zion, one of the hills of ancient Jerusalem, is the place where God dwells.”

Did some Jews/Israelites think they would never return to Judaea (which gave "Jews" its name)? Certainly true. But they repeatedly prayed for it. For thousands of years, the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel and desire to return to it never went away, even if some thought it required Messianic direction to happen. This has been part of the Jewish religion and Jewish people for 3500 years. There are thousands of sources for this, including the standard Jewish prayer book, the Jewish prayer over the meals, all the Jewish holy books, etc. This necessary context should be in the article. Brittanica is right. Any text that excludes this undeniable truth is hopelessly antisemitic.GreekParadise (talk) 20:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

GreekParadise, I'm sympathetic to your points and I think that the article could do a better job explaining both the religious as well as cultural ties between Judaism and Israel, which are definitely discussed extensively in the best sources such as Edelheit and Engel. I just think you'll have an easier time making that case using NPOV and the language of Wikipedia rather than calling it antisemitic which could be unintentionally interpreted as a personal attack of some sort. I would say the article has critical-of-Zionism lean. Andre🚐 20:44, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I agree with that first point. Bitspectator ⛩️ 20:49, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I know - you said as much earlier. I thought we were doing so great with that superdeluxe version earlier. Andre🚐 20:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

No POV tag needed here. The material in the article is obviously supported by reliable sources. Please read WP:NPOV TarnishedPath^talk 13:08, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think so. We don't just don't tag an article because we don't agree with what it says. If there are specific concerns, then they need to be raised and justified using our policies. M.Bitton (talk) 13:38, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

LivinAWestLife Would you be able to link to the last stable, widely accepted version? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The last edits on October 6 2023, I suppose LivinAWestLife (talk) 20:47, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I would support either returning the article to its state as it was on October 6, 2023

and/or putting a POV tag on it along with a link to the many news articles denouncing this wikipedia article in its current state as "antisemitic", "outrageous", etc. GreekParadise (talk) 18:35, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

It also appears that DMH223344 has violated the 1-rr rule by making two revisions today yesterday an hour apart from one another.

Perhaps the last rendition should be undone on that basis alone. It would also return the POV tag.GreekParadise (talk) 18:42, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@DMH223344, it does look like you made two reversions yesterday. Can you please explain? Valereee (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure, the first one was actually agreed upon by the person who's edit i reverted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DMH223344#%E2%80%9Cwhy_delete_this_instead_of_put_it_in_quotes?%E2%80%9D

(their edit was based on copyright grounds, I just kept the footnote and wrapped it in quotes with an appropriate citation).

I did indeed revert a second edit within 24hr to remove the pov tag. The justification for the tag was apparently that only an anti zionist source supported the claim about "max land, min palestinians", but as I showed, at least 2 non antizionist sources also say the same thing explicitly. That edit also added a lot of content to the lead that's inconsistent with most RS on zionism and not present anywhere in the body (we actually reached a consensus to remove similar content from the body a couple weeks ago). DMH223344 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@Stephan rostie, you confirm that the revert was with your agreement? Valereee (talk) 19:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, i did not ask for their agreement. But they did post on my talk page with what I interpreted as their agreement. DMH223344 (talk) 19:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry, are allotted reverts transferrable now? (Hint, no, they're not an allotment.) I'll give mine to Bob. 1RR on CTOPs is a bright-line rule. Andre🚐 19:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but a bright-line doesn't mean a block is required. For me the intention of the other editor is worth at least trying to understand when deciding whether to warn ("Hey, even if the other edit says yes, you can't revert them; ask them to revert themselves") or to block ("That was not even what they were telling you!"), and also whether to revert that most recent edit when the article is protected. The first is moot now, but the article is still fully protected so the second isn't. Stephan hasn't edited since being pinged. Valereee (talk) 13:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If outrage were sufficient to have content removed from Wikipedia, there would be no Israel-Palestine articles. Bestsources > opinions. Bitspectator ⛩️ 20:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Reverting the work of multiple editors (who have improved the article) is a terrible idea. M.Bitton (talk) 13:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I am curious why so many erroneous statements are in the article. Govvy (talk) 16:41, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM? Not a reply to anyone, source free statement, no specification of anything "erroneous". Selfstudier (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible. Erroneous, in Palestine, Palestine didn't exist in the format of the said sentence. as few Palestinian Arabs as possible. Erroneous, as Arabs, were Bedu, from Arabia, Jordan and Iraq. The Turks were pushed out of the Levant region. This was the Turkish Ottoman empire. I truly despise this article. It's as if no historians were involved in writing this article. Govvy (talk) 17:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

When the term Palestine is first used, what Wiki article does it link to? Bitspectator ⛩️ 17:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

You're welcome to disagree with reliable sources, but don't expect anyone on Wikipedia to care. Levivich (talk) 18:02, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Palestine (region), which is the first link, is in fact showing modern borders. The article fails to promote the ancient border changes. The problem with all these articles, they relegate the conquests of the different kingdoms. Borders are constantly changing, this article relegates the conquest. Zionism is a type of conquest. It's mentioned six times in the article, but doesn't mention it in the lead. It's a movement and a conquest, the land is already has settlement, constant settlement. It had Jews there for hundreds of years, the very first sentence is using the idea of colonisation, which is control over foreign territories. However the territory was never foreign to the Jewish people. So many of the citations used on the article are opinion pieces and not all are factual based. This in turn allows total corrupt writings to imbed into this article. It's no-where near neutral. Govvy (talk) 19:56, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

You said that "Palestine didn't exist in the format of the said sentence". But it's referring to a historical region. So in what way did that not "exist in the format of the said sentence"? Bitspectator ⛩️ 20:19, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This convo is a waste of time. Selfstudier (talk) 21:27, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Besides, didn't Zionism already happen? The sentence above wanted to create well it did happen, surely the sentence needs to be adjusted. :/ Govvy (talk) 21:48, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:IDONTLIKEIT Bitspectator ⛩️ 21:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I basically agree that there is a balance problem, and the lead focuses on specific things at the expense of other informative things. Zionism was a historically successful movement, and what is called Zionism today is conflated with general support of Israel's existence or its right to defend itself. While the lead does say that, not as clear as it could or in so many words, and it gets confused because you could interpret Zionism broadly or narrowly, but as written, it implies that Zionism is a modern settler movement or that Likud/Revisionism/Political Zionism are Zionism, but it's actually a broad, cultural, and religious, and multifaceted movement. Andre🚐 22:04, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I'm repeating this so anyone who wants the article to change understands that I and other editors are not trying to stonewall. It's just that when we're presented with "I feel upset, so please change statements that are backed by dozens of RS" we have to say no. Bitspectator ⛩️ 22:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

No objection to changing that sentence to "Zionists succeeded in creating a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible." Levivich (talk) 22:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, I think it'd be possible for there to have been fewer Arabs, right? There are about 2 million Arab citizens in Israel today. Don't you think that isn't the minimum possible number that could have been reached by Zionism et al? Andre🚐 22:51, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

How about: "Zionists succeeded in creating a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as they could." Levivich (talk) 23:18, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I still think they could've had fewer Arabs. I'm not disputing that many of the earliest Zionists wanted to create as large of a Jewish majority as possible. But, over time, I'm not sure that's the best summary statement. Arab citizens of Israel could have, in theory, all been deported, right? If Turkey created a new state full of Turks and Armenians, they could've deported all the Armenians. But instead the Israeli Declaration of Independence tries to both be a Jewish state and a democratic state with equality of social and political rights, irrespective of religion, race, or sex, and a set of basic laws that protect the rights of the minorities in Israel be they Druze, Circassian, Bedouins, African migrants, etc. I'm not negating the many concerns about the plight of various groups or the civil rights concerns that may be legitimate which should also be mentioned. However, I just don't think that 20% of the population was the lowest possible number of Arabs they could have obtained. Couldn't they have just deported nearly all the Arabs and reduced the population to less than 1%? Obviously, that'd be wrong and bad, but we're already kind of criticizing Zionism as being wrong and bad in that way, right? They've had since 1948 or earlier to get the population down below 20% but I just don't agree that this is a goal of the state. Andre🚐 23:35, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I see no need to change the phrasing in the article. They wanted to, but ultimately didn't. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:44, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Because it's taking a 1930s view and presenting it like it still applies. Andre🚐 23:47, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

"wanted" is past tense. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:49, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It is, but the rest of the lead doesn't explain what ended up happening. Andre🚐 23:50, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The next sentence is "Following the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948 ..." Levivich (talk) 23:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The next line is about the establishment of the state of Israel. Bitspectator ⛩️ 23:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm saying it doesn't explain that in fact, they didn't get as few Arabs as possible, and in fact, they established a democratic pluralitic state, the only one in the region. In fact it implies the opposite, by establishing Zionism as an ethnocentric exclusionary ideology (which was just one branch of Zionism), and then saying it became the state ideology of Israel, it implies that Israel continued that program and not that there was actually a Ben Gurion to oppose the Jabotinsky tendencies. Andre🚐 23:57, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Should there be a line about Israeli apartheid? Bitspectator ⛩️ 00:01, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Does the article on the Democratic-Republican Party talk about Jim Crow or Thomas Jefferson's views on slavery? The lead is hyperfocused on critical aspects of Zionism. There are separate articles for all of these subaspects including the detailed history. This one is supposed to be a balanced overview. Should we look again at how the best sources introduce this? Do any of them introduce Zionism with apartheid? Andre🚐 00:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionism as leading to an apartheid of Arabs is the counterbalance for Zionism as leading to a "democratic pluralitic state, the only one in the region". Is your suggestion that we add only the latter? Bitspectator ⛩️ 00:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you mean. I think that's more controversial than it is balancing, but I'd support something like with continued civil rights issues for the Arab minority who according to many scholars are second class citizens and whose status has been fraught since the founding, or something like that. Which is really what you mean, because Arabs citizens in Israel, unlike the vicitims of the South African apartheid, can run for office and serve in the parliament, and own a business or land. The second-classness of the stateless people in Palestine is a separate problem, but not one that arose specifically because Zionists wanted that, but because of the division and the status of the West Bank and Gaza changes later, such as in 1967. Anyway, a better analogy than the Democratic-Republicans is Patriot (American Revolution). This is the article about Zionism, and not the history of Israel post-1948. While overlapping, they are different. This is an article about an ideology, one that predates Israel, and exists today, and has many forms. I'm not looking to present a pro-Israel position, I'm looking to refocus the article on what it is actually about, which is a movement that was successful, and a set of historiography that has a certain viewpoint, and a set of thinkers and political actors that have a shared ideological underpinning, but many Zionists, such as those who had a different perspective on the plight of the Arab population, so it's not fair to the movement to characterize it all based on Jabotinsky. Ben Gurion hated Jabotinsky, he called him "Vladimir Hitler," and wouldn't even allow his bones to be reburied in the country. Andre🚐 00:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd support something like with continued civil rights issues for the Arab minority who according to many scholars are second class citizens and whose status has been fraught since the founding, or something like that Why? This is this intro for an article about Zionism. Bitspectator ⛩️ 00:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, WP:NPOV means Writing for the opponent, so throwing a bone is pretty common in leads I think. I was trying to summarize what I think of the Israeli apartheid discussion, what I think people really mean when they say that. Andre🚐 00:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you think it's necessary to include "something like with continued civil rights issues for the Arab minority who according to many scholars are second class citizens and whose status has been fraught since the founding" in an intro to Zionism? Bitspectator ⛩️ 00:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's necessary. I'm trying to find a balance and a compromise to express all POVs, so something like that seems like a good substitution for the view that you were trying to espouse. But if you don't like it, I'm certainly not attached to that phrasing. "Something like" shouldn't be in the quote btw, that was me speaking. Andre🚐 00:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I don't think it's necessary. So it follows that I don't think the opposite POV version is necessary. Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say that's an argument to removing the "Zionists wanted... " Andre🚐 01:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Why? We agreed that this article isn't about Israel post-1948. It's about Zionism. So: Zionists wanted... Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionists wanted a lot of things - a national homeland, a Hebrew culture, a sovereign nation, to drain a malarial swamp, to build new institutions, to achieve technological progress, better farms, to live in peace, to escape persecution. They also tried to negotiate with the Mufti. The problem with this particular want is not that it's false but the way it's phrased (most best sources say large Jewish majority not as few Arabs as possible), and the focus of weight at the expense of their other, fuller wants that are less controversial and less focused on the plight of the Arab refugees post 1948. Andre🚐 01:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The line is not about "the plight of the Arab refugees post 1948". Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:51, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionism isn't a political party. American exceptionalism does, indeed, mention Jim Crow, Jeffrson, and slavery. (Not that Wikipedia is an RS anyway.) Levivich (talk) 00:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

they established a democratic pluralitic state No they didn't, wtf? They put the Arabs under military rule until 1967, when the occupations began. Democratic? Pluralistic? No, they created an ethnocracy. Levivich (talk) 00:18, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I wasn't citing Wikipedia as an RS. You have to be specific as there are several different groups. I was referring to the Arab citizens of Israel who have had the right to vote in Israeli elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949 Andre🚐 00:29, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

In the same way that Black Americans had the right to vote since the American Civil War ended in 1865. Those Arab citizens of Israel were subject to military rule until 1966, look up literally any history book at all. Levivich (talk) 00:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Black Americans got the right to vote in 1870 which is when the 15th amendment was ratified. And wasn't America still a democratic pluralistic state all through Jim Crow? Contrast with a monarchy or a state without any form of democratic pluralism? Andre🚐 00:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

No, and I'm laughing out loud because like, lol no, Jim Crow America (for about 100 years after the civil war) was not a democratic or pluralistic state. It claimed to be but it was in fact an apartheid state, which had two classes of citizens based on race. Levivich (talk) 00:42, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that's where we're getting into semantics. A flawed democracy is still considered, by most historians AFAIK, a democracy. A pluralistic state doesn't mean one without flaws. It's true that voting rights protections were still being passed until desegregation and later, but I mean, there's still racial gerrymandering and disenfranchisement today, so are we a democratic pluralistic country now? I think we need to take our cues from what historians say. AFAIK, historians don't say that the civil rights and voting rights that were lacking mean that America wasn't still a democratic republic or that it wasn't pluralistic if a flawed, racist, unfair pluralism until arguably, still today. Pluralism just means that after 1870 there was a right enshrined for the right to vote that couldn't be abridged based on color. Did that fix everything? Of course not. But show me the historians that say America wasn't democratic or pluralistic at all until 1965? Andre🚐 00:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Legal scholars will have to do: There is no definition of democracy that the United States, pre-1965, actually meets. Any working definition of democracy includes the full right to vote for all citizens. Kalb, Johanna; Kuo, Didi (2018). "Reassessing American Democracy: The Enduring Challenge of Racial Exclusion". Michigan Law Review Online. 117 (1): 56. doi:10.36644/mlr.online.117.reassessing. Levivich (talk) 02:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

That source doesn't pass the smell test. I wouldn't really call that law review article an authoritative source by a historian. Far from it. Contrast with Democracy as a way of life in America: A history, which starts in like 1786 and covers 3 distinct waves of democracy in American history. Pluralism is generally associated with James Madison and the Federalist Papers. I realize this gets pretty far off track a discussion of Zionism, but aren't you the guy who advocates for well-cited scholarly books that are specifically about the topic? Andre🚐 02:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Allow me to introduce you to Johanna Kalb, dean of a law school and an expert in the law of democracy, and Didi Kuo, of Stanford's Center on Democracy. I think they're qualified to say what a democracy is. Levivich (talk) 06:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

They're lawyers. Kalb is a constitutional lawyer. That's the same specialty as Dershowitz. And surely you don't think that law review article is somehow representing the consensus view of historians. I really do not think any historians say that American democracy began in 1965. Andre🚐 06:48, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you trying to employ American law on another country that isn't America? That seems way off base here. Govvy (talk) 08:16, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I do not think that is what anyone is doing. The discussion led to an analogy. Andre🚐 20:28, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

References

NPOV tag dispute

There's an essay at Wikipedia:NPOV dispute that directly discusses disputes over NPOV tags. Realize this is an essay, not policy. It's useful in understanding how others are interpreting policy and deciding how to resolve the issue. Valereee (talk) 13:52, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

My reading is that there is consensus against the NPOV tag. More importantly as the addition of the tag has been challenged by reversion this is now covered by active arbitration remedies, namely that "[c]hanges challenged by reversion may not be reinstated without affirmative consensus on the talk page". TarnishedPath^talk 13:59, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this might actually need an RfC? This is a toggle-switch situation, not an area that can be compromised on, tweaked, differences ironed out. It's either tagged, or it isn't. Valereee (talk) 14:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

That depends on whether the tag can actually be justified using the policies. M.Bitton (talk) 14:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems RFC is only way to make any progress, supporters/objects can then formally make the arguments for and against and we can restart conversations in a month. Selfstudier (talk) 14:36, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Commonsense would be that one should not tag a whole article if one dislikes a word, phrase or a single sentence, esp. in the lead. Before being once mired down in endless talk and argufying, which so far has produced no result but has wasted enormous energies (for the simple reason that those who opposed the very well-attested term 'colonization' don't appear to accept anything but the disappearance of the term, but I may be wrong), editors who wish the term to mark the article should give a bulleted list of specific, emendable terms, phrases or whatever, whose entry into the article they consider, (in context, because NPOV is balanced in contexts) a violation of neutrality. That way, practical editors can deal with each point, rationally, by referring to arguments already covering the point in the archives, and fixing the issues. This is what is done at GA and we should adopt that criterion. Nishidani (talk) 16:33, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

The reason why this is unusual is because of the additional consensus required restriction, a discretionary sanction in effect. Normally, a tag is added when a discussion begins and is removed when the discussion ends and there is a consensus. Removing the tag is against the norms and in some cases the rules. However, given the consensus required restriction, any change challenged by reversion cannot be reinstated, which would seem to include tags. Andre🚐 23:05, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense though, if the idea is to insist on consensus, tags don't really help, at least not in this article, pretty sure we had several rounds of tagging previously. Selfstudier (talk) 09:59, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The usual function of tags is to plaster them and then walk away, without any logical or evidential warrant for them. They apply not to the articles overall, but to one or two phrases or a contested line at the most. Nishidani (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit suggestion- remove a line in the opening paragraph

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The line "and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible" should be removed, it does not represent the general ideas of Zionism and is based on an impartial and mostly irrelevant source.

If not removed, then it should be moved somewhere else, this sentence is what appears in the google summery below the link, and that sentence alone is highly misleading. Eylon Shachmon (talk) 12:11, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done It is based on 10 sources. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:19, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and under discussion anyway. Selfstudier (talk) 12:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

But there are many sources that state otherwise.

This sentence is very biased and also there is no consonance in the source about this claim. הויקיפדון (talk) 18:51, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Someday, somebody claiming that there are many sources that state otherwise, will actually list those sources. Levivich (talk) 19:01, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RS opinion on “colonialism"

Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the return of Jewish refugees from Europe and Middle Eastern countries to the ancestral Jewish homeland, in a manner that has been described by some as colonialism but disputed by others. According to The New York Times, Israel was "peopled not by colonial forces" but by refugees from persecution in Europe and Arab lands. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 02:24, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

It's not "According to The New York Times," it's according to Roger Cohen, and an analysis in a newspaper isn't WP:DUE. There are plenty of high-quality academic books about Zionism to summarize; the views of individual journalists aren't significant enough for a high-level summary article of a topic with as much available scholarship as this one, not when compared to the views of scholars in the field. We could have 100 "According to [journalist's analysis published in reputable newspaper]..." statements in this article if we did that. And besides, no individual -- scholar or journalist -- is so important that their view should be stated in the lead of this article (or almost any Wikipedia article). I agree with the revert. Levivich (talk) 02:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Roger Cohen is not an expert in any discipline relevant to this article. His opinion damn sure doesn't belong in the lede, where you tried to place it. And frankly, not that my experience is any more relevant, it's kind of absurd. I have family who emigrated to Israel. I wouldn't call them "refugees from New Jersey."Dan Murphy (talk) 02:42, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

This handwave to another POV:

"The war has seen another significant shift: the broad embrace of the Palestinian cause as an extension of movements for racial and social justice in the United States. It has also been adopted by the Global Majority, sometimes known as the Global South, as an expression of the battle of Indigenous peoples — read Palestinians — against white colonial oppressors and interlopers."

and this hyperbole:

"Across the world, from the Americas to Africa, the quest to create a state of Palestine supplanting Israel has become the North Star of many young people. Israeli “colonialism” is increasingly shorthand for the Zionist project of establishing a homeland for the Jewish people after their millennial persecution, rather than for Israel’s post-1967 colonial settlement of the occupied West Bank."

Followed by a desultory "Not all the protesters think this way, of course. They are appalled by Israel’s conduct of the war but do not dispute its right to exist".

"News analysis" is stretching things, plainly a lot of opinion in this piece and certainly not leadworthy. Selfstudier (talk) 09:54, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

References

These are good points. Currently, "Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside Europe" does not show NPOV.

Academic sources relevant to the discussion include:

"Zionism declared that it had no desire to rule others (i.e. Arabs), and was not willing to have others rule it. The Zionist position was that Arab demands should be met in the framework of autonomy. The Zionist Congress of 1921 defined Palestine as a 'common land' and talked about undisturbed nationalist development of the Jews and the Arabs. The following Congress, in 1923, spoke of the integration of the Jewish people in the revival of the east...

Foregoing Jewish majority rule in Palestine, willingness to grant full Arab autonomy in Palestine and support for the movement of Arab independence and unity - all considered by the Jews to be far-reaching concessions- did not satisfy the Arabs. They demanded institutions that would guarantee Arab majority rule".

"Documents indicate that the American Zionist leaders went beyond the question of Jewish-Arab relations: they proposed plans that dealt with such questions as water, the future refugee problem, regional economic cooperation and the role of international organizations in the Middle East, with a view to assuring Jewish-Arab coexistence and cooperation".

"Palestine under the Mandate knew not only years of violence and hostility but also partnerships and the creation of understanding, mostly as a result of the wish to realize joint interests. The working of the Haifa municipal council at the time of the Mandate reflects this well. The cooperation that crystalized in it was a breakthrough with respect to the possibility of administering a mixed city in conditions of national conflict".

Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 23:38, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

Why are these academic sources relevant to the discussion? How did you select them? Levivich (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

They show that unlike the British mandate, which represented colonialism, the British had somewhere to go back to, compared to Jews who (in addition to fleeing persecution and returning to their indigenous homeland) had no intention of colonizing Palestine but rather had intentions of coexistence with Arabs. American Zionists then attempted to further regional cooperation, which was exemplified by the working of the Haifa municipal council. Academic sources were requested in the comment "There are plenty of high-quality academic books about Zionism to summarize; the views of individual journalists aren't significant enough for a high-level summary article of a topic with as much available scholarship as this one, not when compared to the views of scholars in the field." Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

None of these three sources are books. They're not even widely-cited papers; less than 10 citations each (and that's after 20-25 years of publication). The journals have low impact factor (for whatever that's worth). They're all Israeli -- don't you think we should consider non-Israeli sources as well as Israeli sources, like the Wikipedia article currently does? One is geographer, another is an archaeologist (Segev is a historian). I'm not sure why you think these obscure papers are "high-quality academic books." Levivich (talk) 00:15, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

OK forget that question, I just read the first one, Katz. Your quotation omitted the words "During these years," at the beginning, before "Zionism declared that it had no desire to rule others". And then there's this part, a couple pages later, emphasis added:

Chances of reaching an agreement were remote from the outset, since as soon as the Zionist enterprise launched its campaign to change the balance of demography and settlement in Palestine in favour of the Jews, Arab nationalists felt compelled to halt or impede this process. Agreement would be completely antithetical to Arab interests, as Arabs would have to concede vital issues such as land and immigration in any agreement with the Jews. Similarly, the Jews could not abide any significant concessions on these two issues, as they ran counter to the fundamental principle of the Zionist enterprise in Palestine.

In 1936-37, the official Zionist leadership despaired of reaching any agreement with the Arabs, although they had nurtured this hope for many years. Yet deep in their hearts, they had known since the 1920s that the conflict with the Arabs would be ongoing, as Zionist and Arab interests were fundamentally opposed to each other. In practice, they denied the inevitability of the conflict - for purposes of public consumption, to ease their liberal and socialist conscience, and also in the hope or delusion that the Arabs, despite everything, would agree to an accommodation. Like Weizmann, Ben-Gurion, who headed the Jewish Agency Executive from 1935 and had fervently believed in the possibility of an agreement at the outset of his career, also lost hope in 1936-37 and accepted the inescapability of violence, becoming the symbol of 'anti-Arabism' and advocating the need for a Jewish majority and Jewish force of arms to realize the Zionist vision. Thus, the Zionist leadership reached the conclusion that a mutually agreeable solution was out of reach: objectively, the conflict could not be resolved in a way that would fully satisfy both sides. Achieving the goal of Zionism - a state in Palestine - inevitably entailed injury to the Arabs, and therefore every Zionist attempt to come to agreement with the Arabs without conceding their objectives would be doomed to failure.

That part seems pretty relevant, eh? How come you didn't read Katz and were like, "oh, wow, that Wikipedia article is spot on-- it says the same thing this geographer Katz wrote 25 years ago in an obscure paper with 6 citations in a journal with an impact factor 0.4!" I'm not going to read the other two, I'll assume they also say the same thing that everybody else says. Levivich (talk) 00:09, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

That is uncivil. I humbly request your good faith attention. As I stated, "Zionism... aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the colonization of a land outside Europe" does not show NPOV. I propose "Zionism is an ethnocultural nationalist movement that emerged in Europe in the late 19th century and aimed for the establishment of a Jewish state through the return of Jewish refugees[8] from Europe and Middle Eastern countries to the ancestral Jewish homeland, in a manner that has been described by some as colonialism but disputed by others". If respectful discussion is not possible, administrative involvement will be needed. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 00:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

@Allthemilescombined1, FWIW, you've come into a highly contentious topic and started making suggestions that seem to indicate you haven't read this talk page thoroughly enough. Editors here have been working very hard for months to find some area of compromise for this article, even though many of them disagree with one another on many things, including sourcing. I'm sure they're all trying to be patient with less-experienced editors coming in, but tempers do get frayed. IMO that was a pretty mild sarcasm that doesn't rise to actual incivility. Not particularly helpful, but not uncivil.

If you'll read this talk page rather thoroughly (I'd recommend including the most recent archive, Talk:Zionism/Archive 26, too, as you can see that even with this talk archiving after fifteen days it has a dozen active discussions) so that you can bring yourself up to speed, you'll probably find fewer editors making sarcastic remarks about your suggestions. Valereee (talk) 10:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I’m not casting aspersions at anyone in this chat, but although I’ve been welcomed kindly by some editors, to whom I’m grateful, I’ve also experienced contentious editors. I’ve noticed editors who have made mild-mannered prickly comments as a means of wearing down dissenting editors and making the edit (and larger space) feel like it is hostile and inhospitable. I personally see sarcasm as thinly veiled intention, so I will not accept the notion that a mountain of microaggressions is acceptable in a space that is supposed to, principally, be AGF. Encouraging sarcasm is a slippery slope to AGF evaporating in the long term. Said with all respect, but we must admit that things add up, and no one would be left feeling antagonized in the long run if we were doing a good job at being kind to each other consistently. Allthemilescombined1 (talk) 16:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not encouraging sarcasm. To be clear, I think it's seldom persuasive. But I've never found slippery slope arguments -- a logical fallacy, btw -- compelling. Yes, in an ideal world, everyone would be able to communicate 100% of the time without making mild-mannered prickly comments. This is a contentious topic. Tempers get frayed. Patience gets tried. If you'd like to argue this sidebar further, let's take it to your talk or mine. Valereee (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

Zionists wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine with as much land, as many Jews, and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible <- the "and as few Palestinian Arabs as possible" sould be removed

• Why it should be changed:

zionism's goal is to have and support an isreali country in the land isreal is on today, but there is no reason palestinian arabs can't be in that country. while zionists can be racist, that's not something included in zionism itself - some poeple are just racist

• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

85.250.181.238 (talk) 13:50, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

References

 Not done: the statement about the removal of Arabs is sourced. (moved this accidentally archived request back to main talk page) Danski454 (talk) 21:15, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

What should be changed: Replace the first line with "Zionism is a movement to establish a Jewish homeland in what is now Israel, and the ideology that Israel has a right to self-determination." Why it should be changed: The current wording is very antisemetic and inaccurate. Colonisation may have had a different meaning back then but today it has a negative connotation so using the term implies a lack of understanding about the subject. This violates WP:NPOV.2600:8802:3A0E:4300:B402:6C3B:179B:9B63 (talk) 00:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. --AntiDionysius (talk) 00:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, @AntiDionysius, at this CT, non-ECR editors can only make edit requests and cannot try to gain consensus. Better advice for them would be that edit requests should be for noncontroversial changes, like typos. Valereee (talk) 01:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Fair point, thanks! AntiDionysius (talk) 01:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

issues for potential RFC

It was mentioned in the above sections (language in the lead consensus, NPOV balance issues in lead, best sources list, and how some sources describe Zionism, now archived to Zionism/Archive_25 Zionism/Archive_26 Zionism/Archive_27 I think, see [9]) that several editors do feel there is a balance issue with several sentences in the lead. Here are a few of my ideas for the potential multi-part RFC which should be modeled after the one at Talk:2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions#Requested_move_19_September_2024 which I'd say is an exemplary discussion on a very contentious topic, i.e. a series of constructive propositions or resolutions, with binary support or oppose for each. They aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but in some cases would result in a change that would make another one weaker or unnecessary.

1. Include "colonization" in the lead? Line 1
2. Include "colonization" in the lead? Paragraph 2 (mutually exclusive with #1)
3. Include "settler-colonialism" in the lead?
4. Include "exceptionalism" in the lead?
5. Change "as few Arabs as possible" to "Jewish majority"?
6. Change "as few Arabs as possible" to "largest Jewish majority possible" (mutually exclusive with #5)?
7. Remove summary about different mainstream types of Zionism sharing a view toward violence?
8. Remove summary about different mainstream types of Zionism sharing territorial displacement?
9. Include "homeland" in the lead?
10. Include "national home" in the lead?
11. Include "self-determination"?
12. Include "democratic" in the lead?
13. Include "pluralistic" in the lead?

Andre🚐 20:43, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Is zionism "considered" settler colonialism, or is it "criticized" as such?

The characterization of Zionism as settler-colonialism is not necessarily criticism, so I suggest that we adopt the phrasing "considered" or "described" rather than "criticized". Recent edits started using "criticized" instead, which I disagree with. DMH223344 (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)