Talk:Zia-ul-Haq

Military career during 1971 war

Zia must've been quite a senior general or commanding officer during the Bangladesh Liberation War of 1971 with India. But there is astonishingly no mention of his role or participation or accomplishments during that war (unarguably the greatest turning point in South Asia's history since the partition in 1947). Not even a single sentence is mentioned, though some tidbits about him being a tank commander during the 1965 war are present. Somebody with knowledge should probably expand this article. 220.225.2.107 (talk) 02:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

According to the infamous assasinations documentary I was watching today (the episode wa about Zia), he was a relatively low ranking officer when he was made Bhutto's cheif of staff. That is probably why there is little record of his early army career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.217.151.121 (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Citations required in the death section

The Death part contains this sentence, which, in my opinion, need citation. This is as follows:

Other groups who have fallen under suspicion include the Afghan Communists and Shi'ite separatist groups operating within Pakistan.

What does that Shi'ite separatist groups mean and please also mention the source.

Now the section reads that the Israelis might be behind it, once again without citation.

In Fred Burton's book Ghost: Confessions of a Counterterrorism agent he describes how he, as an agent in the Diplomatic Security Service, was assigned to investigate the death of Ambassador Raphael in the same plane crash that killed Zia. His findings (in cooperation with the Pakistani military) point to a nerve gas agent being released from a Coke can set with an altitude sensitive detonator in the cockpit, which incapacitated the pilots. Traces of the nerve agent were found on cockpit debris, and the top of the Coke can used as the container (also heavily contaminated with nerve toxin) was also found.

Since nerve agents are only manufactured by highly industrialized nations, especially in the eighties, fingers can only be pointed in a couple different ways: America, or the USSR. While I don't doubt that Israel now has the capabilities to manufacture nerve toxins, and they probably could have got them from the US in the eighties, the USSR swore their revenge on Zia (publicly) after his support for the mujahideen (via the US), which forced their embarrassing withdrawl from Afghanistan. This makes them the likely culprit behind Zia's assassination.

My opinion is that Fred Burton, who investigated the crash site and its evidence, should be cited from his aforementioned book in death section of Zia's Wiki page, which should read that the KGB and the USSR were behind Zia's death.

Layout mess

Layout is now a mess. text at end needs to be cleaned up and moved up.

It isn't just layout. The grammar and sentence structure is a mess, and the language often obscure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.197.15.138 (talk) 09:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Removed POV stuff

There is probably some amount of neutrally-describable facts in the the following section of the article which I have excised. Nevertheless, it is such blatant editorializing that I felt obliged to remove it. Phrases like "it is an interesting fact" are major red flags that what follows is not fact at all, but merely opinion. Note that I knew nothing about the topic at hand before stumbling upon this article, but I knew at a glance that this content violated the NPOV policy. If you want to put it back, it will need to be phrased in a more neutral fashion. That is, it would have to written such that Zia ul Haq himself would have to agree that it neutrally described him.

It is an interesting fact of the history of Pakistan that all army dictators have promised to clean up the "corruption" in civilian politics and have in fact promoted corruption, horse-trading, turn-coatism and even blatantly bribed time serving politicians to gain a semblance of popular support.

Zia did the same. Before the execution of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto Pakistan boasted a quasi civil government under the heel of the Martial Law, with ministers drawn from the Jama'at Islami, the Pakistan Democratic Party, the Jamiat Ulema-e-Pakistan, various miniscule factions of the Muslim League -- all parties which repeatedly failed to garner any appreciable popular vote at the polls.

Another interesting feature of Zia ul Haq's rule was a brutalizing of Pakistan's society through what his government called "Islamization." In the name of Islam, legislation was enacted, which according to many scholars of Islamic jurisprudence, had nothing to do with Islam and its injunctions. Such legislation militated against the minorities, women, and the under-privileged strata of society.

In Pakistan, Zia's eleven years of rule are most often remembered for the public whipping of political dissidents, absolute censorship of the press, the country's acting as a conduit for money and material and training ground for the so-called Afghan Jihad, the proliferation of hard drugs and arms, and a hitherto unknown and especially vicious variety of sectarian and ethnic violence.

Nohat 07:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Removed more PoV stuff

What is not commonly known, although fully documented in the Pakistan and international press of the day,
is that the votes cast in the referendum through which Zia secured his Presidency were a mere two per cent of
the total registered vote at that time.

Another very important, and equally fully documented fact is that in Bhutto's trial on the charge of allegedly
conspiring to murder a political opponent, which alleged conspiracy resulted in the death of the opponent's
father, due process of law was totally bypassed.

Zia's Islamization too, was widely seen as a ploy to prolong his dictatorship, and many of the edicts and
amendments to the constitution of the country had literally nothing to do with Islamic Jurisprudence or Sharia.

The most lasting effect of eleven years of Zia's militray rule in Pakistan have been a vast increase in hard
drugs consumption, traffic and export, gun-running, and deep schisms in the body-politic of the country.
Exacerbating sectarian, ethnic and linguistic differences was a stock tactic for keeping the people at bay
during Zia's rule.

Again, some of this could probably be merged into the article in a NPoV way, but an anonymous user stuck it at the end of the article. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 16:49, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC

Condolences and Tributes by world leaders

I am not sure if the condolences bit is relevant to an encyclpedia article. Condolences and tributes are sent by world leaders(on anothers death) as a matter of protocol. Furthermore, they are more reflective of the respective country's foreign policy designs rather than that leaders personal views regarding General Zia. Any Comments?

Sandbreak 18:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC) I am not sure who is trying distort history by painting this guy as a saint, who is most hated personality in Pakistan and is generally considered to be the source of all the problems Pakistan is currently facing. If some of his deranged supporters think that used Wikipedia, they will turn the wheel of history, and using lies, will be able to disinform Pakistan and rest of the world they are mistaken. His actual resume summmary is as follows. He is generally known as Zia-ul-Batil, and was known as the Mad Monk of Pakitan. He used religion to perpetuate his illegimate rule and was resposible of derailing Pakistan from democracy. Was reposible for murders of thousands of political activists belonging to Pakistan Peoples Party. Was recruited by CIA to derail Pakistan from democratic path and overthrow of Z.A. Bhutto's elected government, and stop Pakistan from acquiring nuclear capabilities. This page and Z.A. Bhutto's page needs a complete overhaul, new set up and a new persona, and I will do this job pretty soon. Supporters of Zia-ul-Batil need to be taught a lesson in history, and new Z.A. Bhutto's page will do this historic duty!

In the book 'Gorbachev - Heretic in the Kremlin' by Dusko Doder and Louise Branson the death of Zia-ul-Haq is described as assassination. 2001:8003:AC60:1400:6554:7954:2EAD:97ED (talk) 03:53, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Zia and Ahmadiyya

One aspect of Zia era which sticks out like a sore thumb is his hatred for Ahmadiyya community. Strangely enough no mention has been made of the anti-ahmadi ordinance and the outlandish laws in it of which you can not find any example in modern world. Zia had a personal hatred for Ahmadis which is evident in his attempts to arrest the leader of the community in 1984. This aspect of his rule should be included in the topic. Khokhar976 15:41, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Zia did that to cover his Ahmedi background. His British-era military service records revealed that he had declared himself Ahmedi and got a letter of recommendation from Qadian to get a good job in military. The anti Zia elements raised hell upon this discovery. His associates first tried to defend him by saying that it was impossible to get a good job in military during the British rule without a letter from Qadian. Then they claimed that many of the top military officers from British era were either Ahmedi or had a letter of recommendation from Qadian. They went to show how easy it is to get Canadian or European immigration if someone has a letter from Ahmediyya leader. Woodbridge, Toronto, Canada is full of immigrants who got by obtaining a letter from Ahmedi leader.

Despite these measures anti-Zia elements still consider him a covert Ahmedi. Hassanfarooqi 16:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Pervez Musharraf Ahmadi too. His wife family also Ahmadi. Are all army chiefs Ahmadi? Gemini210 (talk) 09:20, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I know this for a fact that Zia's wife had an Ahmadi background. She comes from an Indian Immigrant family in East Africa. So it is very much possible that he was loosely connected to the movement in his younger days. The letter from Qadian sounds a bit far fetched. In united india of 1930s onwards, the british attitude towards Jamaat became increasingly cold towards Qadian, so much so that Ahrar were given free hand to hold a Jalsa there. But, it is also a fact that being an Ahmadi is almost a certificate of good citizenship. That is why you will find western government having no problems with granting assylum to them. The letter you refer to is not of recommendation, but of confirmation that the assylum seeker is an Ahmadi. Which in turn confirms that He/she is suffering from Zia made laws of Pakistan. Every ahmadi suffers from them. They are very much universal in their applciation. Khokhar976 08:57, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact is that an Ahmedi does not suffer until he poses as a mainstream Muslim which is against Pakistan's law. Yet a letter gets him immigration rightaway and welfare subsequently. Compare this to other minorities such as Hindus (post Babari Mosque demolition) and Christians (post 9/11 backlash) who have genuinely suffered by the hands of fanatics. However Hindus can't get immigration in Hindu dominated India or Christian dominated Canada that easily. You community still enjoys the status of most preferred community by British and their subject countries Hassanfarooqi 19:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Infact out community enjoys the status of most preferred in all nations except for bigoted mullah-led regimes and nazis. Even Musharraf had to accept (despite the hanging sword of MMA) that Ahmadis are patriotic Pakistanis. Recently Nazis in east germany had a problm with our community, but German government supported us. Same goes everywhere else in the world. India has a legal system which protects everyone. What happens in pracitce is a seperate affair. But in Pakisan, laws are aimed at Ahmadis to prosecute them. Your saying that "does not suffer until he poses as a muslim" is daft to say the least. Actually the word "pose" is used in the law, which makes it even more laughable. All ahmadis believe to be Muslims. So there is no case of posing, but believing. Khokhar976 08:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Here you go lying again. I said "does not suffer until he poses as a mainstream Muslim". You quoted me "does not suffer until he poses as a muslim". Note the missing word "mainstream". This is typpical of your community. Lying by misquoting. This way you prove that a British rebel Ubaidullah Sindhi was praising a British operative.

Pakistani law has no problem declaring yourself an "Ahmedi" but has a problem pretending to be a mainstream muslim like Shias and Sunnies, which you are not. As per the statement of your leader is Supreme Court, non Ahmedies are not Muslim by Ahmedi faith and therefore Ahmedies are not Muslim by Muslim faith. In view of this statement of your leader, any Muslim majority country has a right to declare you non Muslim. You defy this right by having Masjids like Muslims and Adhans like Muslim to fool simple unaware Muslims.

If believing Mohammed as a prophet but not the last one, gives you the right to call yourself Muslim, then believing in Christ to be a prophet but not son of God, gives you the right to call yourself Christian. Why dont you call yourself Christians, call your worshiphouse churches, and call your Mirza Ghulam Ahmed's saying as Bible's latest testament. I guarentee Pakistan will have no problem with this but do not know how the Christian world would react. Hassanfarooqi 14:13, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

There should be no differnce between the rights of a mainstream muslim and a fringe muslim. I claim to be a muslim, a true muslim. You can call me whatever you like, but you can not force me to start calling myself what you wish. Pakistani law forces me not to call myself a muslim. You are trying to justify a law which says that you must curse some other faith before you can be declared as sirkari musalman on your passport. That is the most pathetic law in these times. Here is another "gem" of the law you admire. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C02%5C02%5Cstory_2-2-2007_pg7_11 Khokhar976 09:03, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

My claiming to be a Christian because I believe in the holiness of Jesus Christ does not make me a Christian and any claim to Christianity would be misleading and deceptive because I do not believe Jesus was son of God (the fundamental belief of Christianity). You belief in Mohammed's prophethood does not entitle you to be a Muslim because you do not believe he was the final one (a core belief of Islam). Your claim to Islam is false and deceptive. If Muslims start calling themselves Christians and the Masjids as Churches luring unknowing Christians, rest assured the United States WILL pass a law disbanding Muslims from calling themselves Christians. If we ignore the law and play with words to declare ourselves as Christians, there will be more specific laws and might ask us to deny that Mohammed was a prophet. Then if we do play with words to imply that we believed in Jesus as son of God (a spiritual one like all humans) etc, they might require us to curse prophet Mohammed. Luckily, none of us call ourselves Christians in the first place.

Per your leader's statement in Supreme Court, you religion IS different than ours. Posing yourself as a different religion than you practice, with an intent to deceive people contitutes of fraud and forgery anywhere.

The seeming stupid law came into force after the following events

- You continued to lie under oath for Muslims passport that you were Muslim, when caught your explanation was that per your beleif you were the only Muslims

- The law was changed to require that you declared that you are not Qadiani but you continued to lie under oath that you were not Qadiani. When cuaght, your explanation was that you were not born in Qadian so you were not Qadiani.

- The law was then changed to require you to declare that you believed in the finality of Mohammed's prophethood and did not consider Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as prophet. You continued to lie under oath that you believed in the finality of Mohammed and did not consider him a prophet.

- Finally you were required to curse Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as this was the only way to seperate yourself from mainstream Muslims.

If you had not been stubborn in making a mockery of the law, such a stupid looking law was not needed. Hassanfarooqi 23:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

"If Muslims start calling themselves Christians and the Masjids as Churches luring unknowing Christians, rest assured the United States WILL pass a law disbanding Muslims from calling themselves Christians."

Someone should seriously considering removing the biases in this article. The sections on "personal wealth" and the "murder of Bhutto" are clearly favoring the PPP opposition democratic movements within Pakistan at the time. Both perspectives need to be presented.

Update: I removed the World Leaders tribute. A "citation needed" request had been uploaded for some 5 months. Combining the long absence of the citation with the possible dubiousness of the content, I felt it would be better to remove the data until proper citations were provided.

Sandbreak Jan 20th '08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandbreak (talk • contribs) 02:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

@Hassanfarooqi that Zia was closet Ahmadi must explain why army in Zia Ul Haq time flourished Ahmadiyya training programs and why so many chiefs in banks, industries, and organizations changed to Ahmadi, and also his enmity with Bhutto who made the khatmi nabuwwa law! A19ldr (talk) 14:41, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Bhutto & Zia Both of Arain racial origins??

Early in the article it mentions that Bhutto chose Zia as the Army chief of Pakistan ahead of several more senior generals, because of "their common Arain ancestry". However, if you read Bhutto's biography, it states that the Bhuttos were of Rajput origin and not only that, they were Shia Muslims as opposed to Zia being Sunni Muslim. Is this a mistake?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.39.138 (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Movement for Restoration of Democracy (MRD)

After dismissing the elected civilian government of Bhutto, Zia avoided all the political avenues that could lead to democracy or civilian supremacy. He never held free and fare elections. With whatever worth of civilian prime minister, Mr Junejo, he dismissed him abruptly too in a very short course. He crushed the populist Movement for the Restoration of Democracy using the bullett and Army. MRD was born as a hatred to Zia and his undemocratic dictatorial policies in 1983 which gained popularity in the smaller poverty stricken deprived provinces of Pakistan. It is said that 45000 troops were deployed in Sindh alone to crush the movement. Mrs Gandhi, Indian PM raised concerns over this brutality and violation of human rights at the hands of Pakistan's military dictatorship (Dawn 14th August 1983). Thousands of civilians were brutally killed. That potentiated the feeling of deprivation in smaller provinces as it was seen as a further avenge on Sindhi population from where Shaheed Bhutto came. That high handed harsh approach is well on the record. This movement threatened the process of expanding state power in the name of Islamisation at a time when tensions were high with Afghanistan's proxy war that Zia had plunged into as well with the other front along side India.

Now this is a well recorded and documented piece of history that can not be denied under any ciscumstances. I would call it one of the major movements during the rule of the general. Hence it should not be deleted as it would imply partiality of the article.

Please! provide the source for whatever you are writing. --SMS ^Talk 14:06, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

The references are quoted for this historical movement which is well recorded and documented that could not be denied. I suggest you do google search and find for your self a lot more references to this movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Graduate1983 (talk • contribs) 21:12, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

File:Zia ul haq.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Add Shaheed

please complete full name zia ul haq Shaheed мαℓιк ℓιαqυαт™ (talk) 12:16, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

questions about the article

Problems with article.

When was Zia appointed Chief Martial Law Administrator? The section on Reign as Chief Martial Law Administrator doesn't say.

When was the Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Trial? The section says when Bhutto was hanged but not when the trial was.

If Zia took the office of President of Pakistan on 16 September 1978, why is the sentence "On 4 April 1979, the former elected Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was hanged, " in the Reign as Chief Martial Law Administrator section? By 4 April 1979 Zia was president, not Chief Martial Law Administrator. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:24, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Have added info to try to fix the problems --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Deleting quote

Have deleted a prominent quote in the article
If we are not "Muslims", then what are we? Second-rate Indians?
According to the source (p.136), Zia did NOT say this. It is from the New York Times, quoting an unnamed "liberal" "Pakistani official" who supports Islamisation. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

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General Zia's Picture

The previous picture was incredibly blurry whilst the current one doesn't even show his face. Would it not be better to have it replaced by any of the following? Especially the first one since it's literally his official portrait

https://imgur.com/a/Geukxga

103.145.230.206 (talk) 11:23, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

No mention of zia’s torture of politicians and citizens

No mention at all of zia’s torture of politicians and citizens. 2600:1012:B014:FB52:F992:DB65:3A88:4241 (talk) 15:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Zia's failure as a ruler

Prior to Zia's rule, Pakistanis lived a relatively prosperous life. Crime was low and the economy stable and growing. Wikipedia itself says: 'During the 1960s, Pakistan was seen as a model of economic development around the world, and there was much praise for its rapid progress.'

This changed during Zia's rule, largely owing to Zia's policies. I added the following and I ask other editors to look into these important aspects of Zia's rule and add sources.:

Ruling Policy

As a ruler, General Zia failed. In his tenure, the country fell into chaos and lawlessness. Police started taking bribes and siding with criminals. Criminals frequently entered houses and murdered and looted whole families. Groups such as MQM - notorious for throwing the whole province of Karachi into unrest and murders, Kulhara Group (Axe Group), Hatora Group (Hammar Group) sprang up through out the country, plundering and murdering the nation.

The General population of Pakistan lived a miserable and fearfilled life from Zia's time, which continues to this day.

Economic Policy: As part of Zia's economic policy, heads of many organizations, banks, and industries were changed. Ahmadis were made heads at major factories, banks and every organization. In the army, training programs teaching and conversion to Ahmadiyya were introduced. Promotion in armed forces was given on the basis of conversion to Ahmadiyya and marrying with Ahmadiyya woman. Privileges were given to those armed forces personnel who converted to Ahmadiyya, including senior positions and shares in factories and industries and land properties. While those who didnt converted remained at low positions or were retired. The armed forces enjoyed economic privileges including highly subsidized goods and a lifestyle on par with the upper class, while the ordinary public suffered high costs, unemployment and low salaries, electricity outages, and lack of safety and sanitation. Areas where homes of armed forces and retired armed forces received special care including sanitation and improved infrastructure, such as the Defence Authority areas in Karachi and the "F" areas in Islamabad while the rest of the country suffered lawlessness and lack of sanitation and hygiene. A19ldr (talk) 16:52, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq (Pakistan president).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:54, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

General Zia ul haq kab sadry Pakistan banaa

Kab 203.99.184.18 (talk) 20:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

November 2024

@31.22.160.207

Hi, please look at MOS:LABELS before editing. Thanks. VirtualVagabond (talk) 03:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 8 November 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. charlotte ^👸♥ 07:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

---

Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq → Zia-ul-Haq – He is more commonly known as Zia-ul-Haq. Reliable sources and the ngram tool both indicate a clear preference for this shorter version. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 22:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Question Can you explain, with sourcing, exactly how his name is composed in terms of what is given name and what is surname. I know that in Pakistan the acquisition of a surname element is relatively recent and continues to be inconsistent, so this may not be straightforward question. The reason I ask is that if one were to do a ngram of "Biden" v "Joe Biden" then obviously the former would come out greater than the latter. I notice he is referred to as simply "Zia" in the article text. Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 00:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

In Pakistan and other Islamic countries, the name “Muhammad” is often added as a prefix to a person’s actual name. However, reliable sources typically omit this prefix when referencing notable individuals. In contrast, in the Western Hemisphere, notable individuals are generally referred to by their last name, which is why ngram data shows more results for the last name compared to the full name in such cases. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 01:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support per dawn.com, indianexpress.com, thefridaytimes.com, thehindu.com, and numerous books such as this and this support the suggested title. Most of the foreign media outlets such as NY Times and Time Magazine referred him to as Mohammed Zia ul-Haq. Given Wikipedia's emphasis on WP:COMMONNAME, local media should be given appreciate weight. TheBirdsShedTears (talk) 08:16, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting to generate a more clear consensus. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 22:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Cold War, WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Conservatism, WikiProject Pakistan, WikiProject Military history, and WikiProject Biography/Politics and government have been notified of this discussion. 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 22:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-English scripts and IPAs in lede and infobox

IP, your primary argument in the edit summaries is that the lead and infobox should include the IPA and script of the person’s native language. I’ll address this first: there is no policy that mandates the use of a native language in such cases. If you believe otherwise, please provide a citation to a relevant policy that explicitly states this. Even if we were to assume such a policy exists, the next issue is determining a person’s native language. There should be reliable sources explicitly documenting the native language of each individual. Can you provide reliable sources confirming the native languages of these individuals?

My counterargument is that we should use the Urdu script for all Pakistani personalities under the scope of WP Pakistan because Urdu has significantly more readership than these native languages, which have virtually no readership. An encyclopedia is meant to be read and understood, so if the native language is unfamiliar or unreadable to most readers, its inclusion may not serve the purpose. Additionally, there are numerous reliable sources in Urdu documenting these individuals, but almost no reliable sources in their native languages. Furthermore, these individuals served as heads of government, representing the entire nation. It is therefore more appropriate to include the national language in their articles rather than restricting them to their native languages. Please address each of these points so that we can reach a consensus on how to proceed. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:45, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I shall reply to all your statements, one by one. It's going to be a long one with examples and articles as sources being cited.

Your Statement 1: "There is no policy that mandates the use of a native language in such cases."

Reply: Wikipedia or even its projects inside don't mandate policies regarding usage cases. But the matter of fact is that they [languages/pronunciations] are used. Under the same claim of yours, Urdu should not be included as it is not mandated even if the country has given it any kind of recognition as the inclusion is not mandated by policies of this website. Hence, this claim has been refuted from its base.

Your Statement 2: "Even if we were to assume such a policy exists, the next issue is determining a person’s native language. There should be reliable sources explicitly documenting the native language of each individual. Can you provide reliable sources confirming the native languages of these individuals?"

Reply: Okay, so now that the "policy" claim has been refuted, let's come to the topic of determining a person's native language. This is the simplest of tasks in this. There are considerable sources and information is this regard. For example, it is a simple fact that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's first language was Sindhi; and that Zia-ul-Haq's was Punjabi. Hence, what you are trying to portray as a problem is not a problem in its least sense. Refuted.

Your Statement 3: "My counterargument is that we should use the Urdu script for all Pakistani personalities under the scope of WP Pakistan because Urdu has significantly more readership than these native languages, which have virtually no readership. An encyclopedia is meant to be read and understood, so if the native language is unfamiliar or unreadable to most readers, its inclusion may not serve the purpose."

Reply: The matter of fact here is that native languages or pronunciations are not added on the basis of the so-called "significantly more readership" argument as you are insinuating. There are articles with extinct languages or scripts included just because it belongs to the person or the area, examples being the usage of Old Persian and its cuneiform in Cyrus the Great, the usage of Ancient Egyptian in articles related to it such as Mentuhotep II. Hence your claim is entirely preposterous and has been duly refuted.

Your Statement 4: "Additionally, there are numerous reliable sources in Urdu documenting these individuals, but almost no reliable sources in their native languages."

Reply: Yet again, you are trying to claim a problem while it is not one. There are literally articles with extinct languages included in them, yet you think these living Pakistani languages have no sources. You are entirely ignorant of these, that is the case, because there are standardized forms of these regional languages that are regulated by institutions such as Bangla Academy and Paschimbanga Bangla Akademi for Bengali with its verified IPA page; Punjab Institute of Language, Art and Culture and Punjabi University for Punjabi which, like Bengali, has its verified IPA page; Sindhi Language Authority (SLA) and National Council for Promotion of Sindhi Language for Sindhi with its verified IPA provided by SLA; as well as Pashto Academy Peshawar, Pashto Academy Quetta and Academy of Sciences of Afghanistan for Pashto with yet its verified IPA page also existing. Hence, this is not a problem at all.

Your Statement 5: "It is therefore more appropriate to include the national language in their articles rather than restricting them to their native languages."

Reply: Now that all your claims have been duly refuted, here comes the pseudo-nationalist one. Yes, they did serve as heads of government of the country but Pakistan from the base is a multi-ethnic, multi-lingustic state, so inclusion of the personality's native language doesn't hurt their "representation of a nation". Take the example of Narendra Modi, the prime minister of India, he leads a multi-ethnic country and is very popular in Hindi-speaking regions and most of the time is found speaking Hindi but Hindi is not even included in his article. A leader's representation of a nation is not hurt by inclusion of their native language in their article. Quite ironic you tried to make a bizarre point like this one. Hence, refuted.

All your statements and claims have been addressed alongside examples and sources. Therefore, try helping in maintaining stable articles of WP:Pakistan by keeping these points as the base. Hope to work together in improving the platform. Thanks.

2407:D000:F:3CE3:84AA:CED9:6E5D:D81A (talk) 13:53, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I fail to see why Punjabi should be listed if it didn't have any relevance, and especially take precedence over Urdu, the official language, which is currently listed as a note. HistoryofIran (talk) 15:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

If a language is included, it must be the native one, there is no "relevance of Punjabi" argument here. I have just refuted all the claims above. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:BDAF:B1C5:4516:2506 (talk) 16:32, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

None of your claims have been substantiated, and you have not provided any arguments grounded in policy. Key considerations such as the relevance and significance of the language, the subject’s coverage in reliable sources within that language, verification of the subject’s native language through reliable sources, the linguistic origin of the name, the subject’s significance as a head of state, and their extensive coverage in the English language—all point against the inclusion of the native languages you claim are relevant. These factors collectively indicate that the native languages you propose lack the necessary relevance or basis for inclusion. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:40, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I have just addressed all of this. The claims you are making point towards exclusion of all languages, including Urdu, but since it goes against your pseudo-nationalistic agenda, you are making even more absurd claims such as that of "name-origin". 2407:D000:F:3CE3:BDAF:B1C5:4516:2506 (talk) 16:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I have no issue with the exclusion of Urdu, as this is the English-language Wikipedia. However, including native languages is unwarranted since they hold no significance for these individuals. Let us effectively close your language dukaan (market) once and for all and remove all non-English scripts and IPAs from these pages altogether. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

How about removal of all scripts and pronunciations (from infobox and lede); but we just keep the native pronunciation, agreed upon, just in the lede. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:6D2B:4E2D:28DE:AC42 (talk) 17:01, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Native languages should not be included where they hold no significance. Urdu names, particularly those with origins in Arabic, Persian, and Turkish, should have Urdu IPA. For names like Sassi or individuals involved in Sindhi language movements, such as Rasul Bakhsh Palijo, Sindhi IPA would be appropriate. Similarly, names rooted in Balochi, such as Balach or Brahmdagh, can have Balochi IPA, and names rooted in Pashto, like Palwasha or Malala, can have Pashto IPA. However, names that are not rooted in native languages should consistently have Urdu IPA, regardless of the individual’s native language. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:04, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

First, you are a blocked user evading your block, which means you should not be editing at all according to Wikipedia policies. Editing while logged out does not grant you the right to circumvent your block. Technically, I should not have to waste my time discussing this with you, but since you repeatedly change IPs, blocking a single IP is futile as you will likely return under a new one. This forces editors like me, who comply with Wikipedia’s policies and avoid sockpuppetry, to deal with the disruptions and vandalism caused by your edits.

On the topic itself, as HistoryofIran has highlighted, the relevance and significance of a language matter more than the native language of a person. None of the claims you made in your comments are supported by Wikipedia policies, so there is no valid reason to remove the long-standing inclusion of Urdu scripts and IPAs in favour of less prominent native languages. Many of these Muslim names originate in foreign languages like Arabic, Persian, and Turkish and are adopted into Urdu, which itself is a blend of these languages. This makes it more logical to include Urdu IPA over native languages that lack the same linguistic heritage. For instance, in the case of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, both “Zulfikar” and “Ali” are Arabic names adopted into Urdu. They are not names rooted in Sindhi, so there is no justification for including Sindhi IPA. Similarly, in Shahid Khaqan Abbasi, “Shahid” and “Abbasi” come from Arabic, while “Khaqan” is derived from Turkish into Urdu. These are not Punjabi names, and including Punjabi IPA would not align with the linguistic origins of the names. The same reasoning applies to other articles where your edits have introduced language-related POV disruptions. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 15:50, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Now that I have just refuted all your statements; here you are yet again throwing allegations that you can't prove.

As I have just replied to HistoryofIran, there is no "relevance" in this; if a language must be used, it must be the native one.

As for your other claim about origin of the names, these kind of names have been used in Sindh and Punjab for centuries and are adopted into these regional languages; just as you claim them being adopted into "Urdu". First of all, this is the most preposterous claim that you are making about origin of names. If these names are adopted into Urdu, Sindhi, Punjabi, etc. then by your claim we shouldn't use any of these languages and use separate parameters for Turkic, Persian, and Arabic; you see how absurd this sounds? The claim of name-origin is the most bizarre one here. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:BDAF:B1C5:4516:2506 (talk) 16:41, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

if a language must be used, it must be the native one.

According to which policy? HistoryofIran (talk) 16:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

According to what policy is the use of Urdu mandated and use of native languages prohibited? 2407:D000:F:3CE3:BDAF:B1C5:4516:2506 (talk) 16:51, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I am fine with removing Urdu but no native language should be included, they have no significance for these individuals at all, Urdu still have significance compared to native languages but this is always source of friction and adds no encyclopedic value, let us drop all non-English languages since this is English language Wikipedia, you can fight your language battles at relevant languages wikis. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:58, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree upon dropping all scripts and pronunciations altogether, except one native pronunciation, agreed upon, in the lede. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:6D2B:4E2D:28DE:AC42 (talk) 17:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

According to what policy is the use of Urdu mandated and use of native languages prohibited?

Because Urdu is the official language? Punjabi has no significance here other than being the native of language of his ethnic group. Heck, the word "Punjabi" appears once in the body of the article, when his ethnicity is mentioned, that's it. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

But being official doesn't mandate its inclusion in personality articles. You didn't reply to the question of it being a mandated policy that's why it is up for debate; as I would argue that a person's native language's inclusion is more important in comparison to whatever the official language at the national level is. Stick to WP:Iran. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:858F:7612:98C1:F513 (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

It does in terms of relevance. Nothing in the article suggests that Punjabi was as important as you want it to be. And I stick to whatever I want to. Perhaps you should stick to being blocked? HistoryofIran (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I never claimed that we should use Turkish, Arabic, or Persian directly. Urdu itself is an amalgamation of these languages, which is why using Urdu is appropriate. However, native languages are not blends of these languages, and these names are recognised as Urdu names. They did not originate from native languages, making it absurd to pronounce them using native language conventions. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Then we should contact WP: Bangladesh and demand the immediate removal of Bengali from all Muslim names as it uses Arabic, Persian, Turkic names. It's absurd. Urdu is descended from Sanskrit, like all Indo-Aryan languages, and is only influenced by the languages mentioned above; not an amalgamation of them. Please educate yourself in linguistics to make such comments. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:BDAF:B1C5:4516:2506 (talk) 16:55, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Bengali is the national language of Bangladesh, just as Urdu is the national language of Pakistan, which justifies its inclusion in the same way Urdu is warranted. However, to resolve this matter, I am willing to accept the removal of Urdu, provided that irrelevant native languages are not added in its place. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 17:02, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

But your claim was regarding "name-origin" that's why Bengali was mentioned as an example. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:6D2B:4E2D:28DE:AC42 (talk) 17:06, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Let's drop all languages, but keep one agreed upon native pronunciation. 2407:D000:F:3CE3:6D2B:4E2D:28DE:AC42 (talk) 17:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Why are you using the term “agreed upon”? There is no agreement for the inclusion of native languages. In fact, I am adhering to the prior consensus of including Urdu in the majority of articles. Additionally, in this instance, there is further consensus to retain Urdu and exclude native languages based on the third opinion provided by HistoryofIran. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 18:54, 16 December 2024 (UTC)